Episode #502: Mastering Resume Writing and Career Pivots with Barbara Safani

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Go get them.

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Spending a snow day with Barbara Cefani, who has

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14 awards in international competitions related to

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resume writing, has more credentials than I thought there were actually

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credentials to be gotten in the space. And she is an

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executive coach and helps people move on in their careers successfully

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and into the right place and how they should present themselves. So, Barbara, thanks for

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being on the show. Thanks for having me, Pete. So to start

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off, you know, what what changed or what what happened that you

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dedicated your life to to helping others, in their career

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paths? Yeah. So I used to sort of be on the other side of

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the the house. I used to be in human resources, and I did recruiting of

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candidates. And, later on, I found myself

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in my own search and having to sort of

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recreate my career history, go out there, and

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pitch myself. And, I really learned what it was like to be on the

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other side of the table, and I really wanted to take the skills that I

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had acquired as a recruiter and bring them to

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candidates who were competing for jobs and help them present

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their best face, in terms of the collateral they were presenting

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to an employer as well as the narrative they were,

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creating in order to get in front of them and land their next

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job. Got it. So so all the, the

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Moore writing, that you've assisted people on,

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Talk about when someone's changing careers, or or

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moving into a different industry, how you kinda reframe the narrative

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of a resume that do you look for analogies? Do you look

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for, you know, specifics on the company that they're

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targeting and, you know, kinda customize to each one?

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Yeah. Well, I I what I try to look for is the transferability of the

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skill. So sometimes people actually, they think they're making a career change. It is

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really more like a pivot where a lot of the functional skills that they

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have can be used in the next industry they're going to. So, for

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example, somebody who's in a technology role,

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maybe they've been in in one industry and they're switching to another

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industry, but the functional capabilities are similar.

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Or even somebody who's maybe been on the marketing side of the business and is

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now moving into sales. We look at the transferability, the

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intersection of the skills, and what we're trying to do is focus

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on accomplishments, within those roles that will have

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relevancy to a future employer. Got it.

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So my dad, has probably got one of the cleanest resumes I've ever

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seen. I think he worked for 2 companies, back in the day.

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You know, what what are some of the things that are red flags to you,

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whether it's somebody who's, you know, been in the job for 2 years sequentially,

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know, and this is their 5th job opportunity. Yeah. How do they kinda

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explain some of the volatility or movement of,

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of of different companies? How do you help them with that circumstance?

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Sure. I think people's perspective is a bit different. Very few people are getting the

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gold watch anymore and staying at one company for 30 years. And,

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transitions from one job to another, it's actually very,

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relative to the person who's looking at your your resume.

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So somebody who is in a demographic in their forties, their

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fifties, a 5 year employment stint sounds short. Somebody's in

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their thirties, that sounds like a long time. So I think that

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there is a lot more, grace that's given to somebody who

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has made a few career have had short

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term employment. However, with that being said, there are a lot of reasons

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for that, and sometimes it's actually because it was a consulting gig, and that's not

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noted in the resume it should be. Sometimes it's a downsizing.

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It's okay to note that on the resume very briefly that the the

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position ended because of a downsizing, because the person who was

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reviewing the resume is drawing their own conclusions,

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whether it's fair or not. You and you wanna get to that point where you

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actually get to have a conversation with them. So wherever you can document the

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reason for a change, or maybe you moved and that was the reason for the

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change, document it so that you're telling a cleaner story and

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you're eliminating potential bias. Got it. Yeah. As you

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take a look at, people that just send their LinkedIn

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URL out versus, you know, a thoughtful

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resume that's, you know, nicely formatted and has a narrative to it.

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You know, how has that changed, and and do you think that's better

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or worse? Well, I think LinkedIn is a really important tool,

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and everybody should be taking advantage of it. And if this point, if you're not

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on LinkedIn, people wonder if you've been living underneath a rock. So they really

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do complement each other. But LinkedIn is a little bit

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limiting. First of all, it's limited in terms of the the characters, the the

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amount that you can put on it, and the structure of it is such

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that it's not really friendly to people who've had what we call

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portfolio careers Square there's maybe some diversity in the roles they've had

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or, you know, so many people now are in a gig economy where they're doing

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multiple roles at once. And LinkedIn doesn't really explain that

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story very well. And and going back your earlier point, it could be confusing to

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the reader, and they could wonder if the person's actually hopping around. So

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I always encourage people to have both because the reality is even if they

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ask for your LinkedIn profile or you can apply via your LinkedIn profile,

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most of the time, they still ask you for a resume. And the resume, the

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other point about it is that in a LinkedIn profile, it needs to be

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kind of scrubbed and sanitized a bit, whereas in a resume, it can be

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more specific. Something you would share in a resume you wouldn't necessarily wanna share to

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millions of viewers on LinkedIn. Gotcha.

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You know, as you advise and help people in this

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use of AI or or things that are be done, you know, with a

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ZipRecruiter and they're, you know, searching for keywords, Yeah. I

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tell people if you're gonna do an m and a transaction and you don't have

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an adviser, you're basically playing checkers and the buyer's

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playing chess. Is that kind of what goes on? You know, if

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somebody hires you, we get to play chess, you know, how the systems

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work, versus kinda going it on your own and and, you

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know, flying by the seat of your pants and hopefully something

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matches, but, you know, you don't know the behind the scenes of

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it? How much of that's a little? Yeah. That's part of you

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know, everybody's trying to game the system. You know? What are the

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keywords? And they're sort of trying to put the keywords in there. And

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these ATS, these applicant tracking systems, I tell people they're

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like they're like one part voodoo, one part luck, one you know, it it's

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just they're they're very imperfect systems. And most

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people do not get their jobs because they've posted for something online.

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Most people get their jobs because there's a relationship. And so in

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that case, a resume is an accompaniment to the relationship. It's

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it's it's anchoring the conversation as opposed to being the single

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thing that gets you in the door. So I

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encourage Pete, and if I'm helping them with a resume, yes, I'm writing

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with, keywords in mind that is a component of the

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resume, but I'm not stuffing them in a way that's unnatural

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or wouldn't read right to the human eye. And it's

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really more about educating people that a resume is a tool. It's not a silver

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bullet. It needs to be accompanied with a strategy for getting in front of the

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right decision makers, and that goes way past just posting online.

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Got it. What what are some of the, you know,

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stories that that you tell applicants where somebody came in and,

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you know, you basically retold their entire, you know, career

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and and and told a a story that maybe they

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didn't realize, they actually had? Or, you know,

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something maybe they're changing careers and it's actually a great fit Square they

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thought it was, you know, a chance that they could potentially get

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into something? Yeah. I I think sometimes what happens with people

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when they write their own resumes is they they look like job descriptions. It's

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just sort of a list of tasks. And what they forget is

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that a resume is really more about what you brought to that Talks,

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how you how you took a certain task and turned it into a

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benefit for the company. And a lot of times Pete don't think that way because,

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you know, people go to work, they do their job, they think about when's lunch.

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They don't they don't think about when you know, what did I accomplish today? And

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so I'm really encouraging them to take that step back. And it it can be

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really hard to write your own resume because you're too close to it.

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So I'm offering a certain objectivity to say, you know, it sounds

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like in this case, you assisted in this process that helped bring

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in new business or helped reduce the cost or improve

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margins, etcetera. So I'm connecting things sort of on a

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higher level that, again, it's just been hard for them because they've just been

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doing their day to day job, and that's very empowering. You know? And then you

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can create a narrative about that. And I find that when I work with people,

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they actually can go out into the market with a lot more confidence because their

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messaging is so much stronger, and they can own that.

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This is Pete Moore. I wanna let you in on a little secret. There's this

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company called Promotion Vault, and what they do is they give out rewards

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from retailers that allow you to incentivize your

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members without having to do zero down and 1 month

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free or giving away shakes or giving away t shirts.

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What you want to do is build a rewards program that lasts,

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that people value, and that doesn't discount your own products and

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services. So here's the deal. There's something called rewards vault.

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The rewards vault is going to allow a member to set up their

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own profile. They are going to answer questions. You are gonna get those

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answers. You're gonna be able to target those members and you're gonna reward

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them inside your club, inside your spa, and outside of

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the club and outside of the spa to get them to become loyal,

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to get them to pay their monthly dues, and to be

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rewarded properly for the actions. A lot of companies are cutting back on

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rewards. You shouldn't be. Promotion Vault's your answer. Trust

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me. This is real.

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So, you know, a lot of Pete, have given advice to

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others saying, like, don't give up your your job until you, you'll find your

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next job. How do you feel about that

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as a, a directive? You know, somebody might say, hey. Look.

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I wanna devote my entire time to actually finding the the the right

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fit, and I can't really moonlight doing that. At the same time, you know, if

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you're not employed, somebody might, you know,

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question, you know, a gap in a resume or, you know, why

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you left your current job before you got a new one. How do you, you

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know, think about that? And is that something that people need to

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be concerned about? It seems somewhat of like a myth, maybe not a

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fact. Well, a few things. First of all, you

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always need to be able to account for any transition in your

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chronology. It's a very typical question to ask. Why did you go from

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job a to job b? And, again, you have to assume the person who's

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looking at your resume, they sometimes have, they

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make assumptions with that are not always fair. You know, if even if if you

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were, if you left a job, they're trying to figure out, did you leave on

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your own? Was it a downsizing? Was it political? Was it

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a relationship issue? You have to be able to account for

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that. So that's number 1. The second thing is,

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if you are in a job search and you're working a full time job, then

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your job search becomes part time. Right? You can't you can't dedicate all of your

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time to the job search, which could mean that you would spend more time in

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search because of that. However, for many people, that's not realistic.

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They need cash flow, or they need the the stimulation of the

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job or whatever. There are other people who maybe have the luxury

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of taking that time and dedicating it to their search.

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The length of time you spend in a search also kind of depends at

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your professional level. Somebody who's at an executive level,

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employers don't necessarily see a red flag if they've been out of the

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market for 6 months or more. Somebody who's at a more junior position,

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they might wonder a little bit more about what they've been doing with that time.

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So the bottom line is the most important thing is that you need to be

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able to account for the time that you're in search in

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case you're asked about it. But whether you you are in

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search and working or just in search, that's a personal

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decision. Some Pete, there could be a little bit of a bias, particularly

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from a headhunter because they wanna headhunt somebody away

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that's already at a job that they've taken away as opposed to somebody's on the

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open market. But I don't think that should be the determining factor for

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somebody. You know, people who

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get into a new career search, you know, after 60

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or 90 days, you know, they they get frustrated. They might get, you know,

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depressed. They might think, hey, nobody wants

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me. So what what do you tell people, you know,

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under over if we use, you know, like a a sports term? You know, how

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long does it take to get a job if you're, you know, 50 years

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old and you're changing a career, versus, you know, 24

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years old and and looking for, you know, a a a lower or

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middle entry level position? Well,

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regardless of age, if you're actually changing careers, you're making a big pivot, typically,

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your search is gonna be longer. So that's not so much age related. Where it

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can be age related is yes. As as you sort of go up the corporate

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ladder, so to speak, typically, there's fewer jobs, right, at the level that

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you're looking at. And at an executive level, it's not unusual to

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spend 6 months to a year in a search with 9 months being the sweet

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spot where things really start gelling. If you're somebody who's more

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entry level in your career, it's it's a

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typical, trajectory might be more like 3 to 6

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months, but there's no norm. I have people who land right

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away. I have people who take longer, and a lot of it also

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depends on the strength of the person's network when they start and how they're able

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to activate that. One one thing that's happened in the

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fitness industry over the last 15 years is,

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some companies have hired somebody from Starbucks,

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because they worked at Starbucks. Some people have hired someone who worked at Best

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Buy or Home Depot and thought that

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they could take those retail skills and build out to

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basically turn it into a successful career as an

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executive running up, basically, a sales and marketing company,

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which a lot of retail that are big boxes, you don't have a a

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marketing engine that is a lot different than a regional health coaching.

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Have you seen certain companies,

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you know, basically effect people for the wrong reasons or select people

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because of a brand equity that might not

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really have the right brand attached to what the new business is? Are you

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flipping back to your recruiter side? Yeah.

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I I've seen a lot of miss mismatched candidates,

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or I see the reverse Square the candidate sees a lot of red flags

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and they try to, like, wish them away because they're so excited to get the

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job and then they, you know and then sometimes when I meet them after they've

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gotten that job, it's really not the right fit. But I I

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think I think there is some value in looking at

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the functional skills that are required in one industry and how they might

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transition to another industry. And I think that there is a lot of unfair

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bias when there's an industry you'll often see on a job posting must have

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experience in this industry. Whereas there's, you know, the

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person has a certain functional area of expertise, whether it's operations, it's marketing,

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it's Talks, that actually is transferable. So I would probably say

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Moore more often the other case that the the company is resistant

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to taking the person from outside the industry because they're

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fearful of bringing in someone from the outside. Got it.

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Got it. You know, what what's a typical Dave, you got a

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question? Yeah. I'm I I mean, speaking personally for for people

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listening to this, I've used barber services over a decade ago and

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can't speak highly enough. And and I you just addressed it. And

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I think there's a lot of concern about transferable

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skills, especially in the fitness. Okay. They might wanna go into

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management, but there's concerns, especially Pete that I know

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personally. Oh, I'm a personal trainer, and that's all I could do,

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but I wanna get into working at a hotel, or I wanna get into

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management, but I don't have a business background. And all all I

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have in quotes is multiple certifications as a personal trainer.

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And, god, you know, what am I gonna do now? You

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kind of addressed it, but I think that's really important to to to

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talk a little bit more about. So so the interesting thing okay.

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Somebody who's a personal trainer, right, they'll often get into it there with a passion

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for fit for fitness, and they become a personal trainer. The reality

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is if you're at a big box gym, you're a salesperson.

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You're you are right? You're trying to bring new clientele

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into the gym and promote personal training packages,

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etcetera. And I don't know if personal trainers always kind of

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see that connection. So just right there I mean, your your

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sales, there's marketing, there's a it's a customer facing job. There's the

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customer experience component to it. You know, there

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there's there's a lot of there and and if you're a personal trainer who maybe

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is doing their out on their own, you you're probably promoting yourself.

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You're using social media. There there's huge marketing push.

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You're using technology potentially to, you know, maybe you're training

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people virtually, etcetera. So, yes, there's sort of that that

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technical aspect of being a personal trainer and the certifications and the

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the knowledge of of of that, but there are so many

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other factors that perhaps personal trainers are overlooking. And if

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they're creating marketing collateral to sport to support that, that's very

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easy to be able to, you know, to be able to show, like, you how

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you you filled your classes or you were the highest, you know,

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performer, in sales for the month

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or, you know, sort of your creativity,

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maybe creating a new class or something like that. There's so many ways to play

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it that go past just being a trainer.

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This is Pete Moore. Here's the last tip for you of the podcast.

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We are partnered up with a company called Higher Dose, higher dose

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326
00:20:11,169 --> 00:20:14,529
let's get people happy, healthy, and sweating, and the

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00:20:14,529 --> 00:20:16,950
recovery should be just as good as the workout.

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Question for you related to, certifications that

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people get or, I'll give you an example. My nephew

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is is a junior in high school, and,

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couple of people in my family are concerned he's not gonna get into, you know,

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a school that is, that is

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noteworthy, let's just say. So there's classes

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that are available, you know, like Columbia Business School might have,

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like, a a 2 week crash course for

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$2,000 to be, the business of sports, just to

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kinda have that as, you know, something that was extracurricular and that

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showed, you know, initiative to learn more about the

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field that he wants to go into. How do you

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view certain things like that? Because it's really not, you

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know, a full degree. It's not a full, you know,

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semester. You know, it might be 5 or 6 classes, and,

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obviously, it's a big revenue generator for, you know,

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schools like Harvard or or or Stanford that have the, you know, quote, unquote,

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executive education, departments that are, you know, helping people

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build their resume. You know, is that brand equity

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is that something you recommend? Is that something that should happen more

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naturally? Or do do you tell people, hey. You gotta beef this

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up, you know, based on, you know, some companies like to

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hire only from these schools, so go get a, you know, a 2 or 4

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week class, you know, from this to kinda check off that box. What

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what are your thoughts on that? I think it depends on the skills. So, for

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example, let's use technology as a skill. You know, somebody

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might not have a 4 year degree, in IT, but if they've

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gone to coding school, or if they've taken a coding class,

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they have a very specific skill set or somebody who takes even

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somebody who takes a class in game design or motion design or or something, you

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know, something like that. That's transferable

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immediately. With something like business, I think that,

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it's it's valuable, it's helpful. I think there will always

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be companies that will sort of, you know, be like, we want people from these

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Ivy League schools and that's it, but I would say that's definitely changing. I would

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say the whole concept of the 4 year degree is changing. I have a lot

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of clients who come to me and they're always like, you know, I never got

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my degree, and they're so distraught about that. And

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the reality is, the degree really it has relevance when

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you first get it, and you're competing against other people who just got their degree.

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But the further you get away from that degree, the less relevance there is, and

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the more it's about what have you done for me lately, you know, what have

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you done? So even, you know, in your relative's case,

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it it it having getting experience that is then transferable to the

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next job is going to be more important than that initial

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degree as he goes through his career. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.

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It's great advice. The last question I have is related

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to whether it's on a resume, choose it on a resume, but it's always in

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an interview. You know, tell tell us what your weaknesses are.

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That seems to be a a Square question that, you know, historically comes up

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and, you know, I remember I used to say, I don't say no

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enough or I'm an overachiever or, you know, I I I work too much or,

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you know, what what are some of the things that you wanna be

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transparent and honest about and some things that maybe,

382
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you know, too much information. Sure. Yeah.

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Well, first of all, a lot of times, you're right. What people do is they

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try to to spin it. They make it sound sort of like a a strength.

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You know, I'm a perfectionist is is an example. Right. And the reality is

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that being a perfectionist, it translates to a lot of Pete, like, can't maybe they

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can't get stuff done. It is that is a bad that is a weakness that

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you wouldn't necessarily wanna expose. Yeah. And so what you wanna do is you wanna

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think about you wanna say something that's authentic, but not

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something that's going to be damaging to your candidacy. Right? So you're

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not gonna pull out something that you know, an example where you

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cost the company money or clients or things like that. You wanna maybe pick

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something that's truly a weakness, but maybe it's not super relevant to

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the role that you're going for. And particularly, if there's a pivot that you're making,

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you can choose something that's sort of part of your original skill set that

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won't be part of of the the new skill set. So I

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think the the most important thing is to prepare before for each interview. Think about,

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you know, what that weakness might be and how you're gonna how you're gonna say

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it authentically. And, also, to understand a lot of times when they ask that question,

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they actually know the answer. Like, if you're pivoting to industries and

401
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somebody asks you what is your weakness, you know, you might say by saying, I

402
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,245
know I don't have direct experience in this industry. However, what I

403
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do have are these skills, a, b, c, which are transferable. So you're just

404
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addressing it head on. Got it. Got it. That's great.

405
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:06,250
Look, there's a there's a lot of opportunity in our halo sector.

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There's a lot of private equity that's coming in, and they usually upgrade

407
00:25:10,945 --> 00:25:14,405
their c level teams, once they make an investment. So,

408
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we'll encourage everyone to reach out to you for help in

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landing the next best job as well as, you know, making sure they've got a

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career path and a narrative down. So appreciate your advice.

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And, yeah, I think people need to take hold of

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their resume and their LinkedIn, you know, more aggressively

413
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and also, you know, not be shy to tell people, you know, what they've

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done at their last, couple opportunities that they've,

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that they've nailed versus, you know, just relying on what's, what's on the page.

416
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So any other, advice or any quotes that you live

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by? Well, my favorite quote is change

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is inevitable except from a vending machine.

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I think that's really true, you know, in into these world and the

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world of work, etcetera. I think the other I've just leave

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people with the fact that, you know, if if somebody does decide that they do

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want to work with someone professionally, it can be a little bit

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daunting. It's not a super regulated industry. I would

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encourage people to do their homework. There there

425
00:26:19,015 --> 00:26:22,775
are multiple certifications that resume writers go

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00:26:22,775 --> 00:26:25,960
through, in order to really,

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00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,960
hone their writing skills. If you're working with

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somebody or if you if you inquire to somebody, ask

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them if you'll be working with them or someone on their team. Because you

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00:26:37,425 --> 00:26:41,025
might like that person or develop a rapport, but then you're kinda handed off to

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somebody else. So make sure that it's somebody that you

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00:26:44,860 --> 00:26:48,380
feel comfortable with, that you you feel that they've

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got appropriate credentials, just like, you know, the fitness

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00:26:51,904 --> 00:26:55,024
industry, certainly, you know, you need to be certified to be a trainer, and then

435
00:26:55,024 --> 00:26:58,390
there's all different types of credentials, and that's an expectation in that

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00:26:58,390 --> 00:27:02,150
industry. I would make the same analogy in this industry

437
00:27:02,150 --> 00:27:05,289
and look for those qualifications because I think they do make a difference.

438
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Look. Appreciate, what you've done and what you're doing. It really helps

439
00:27:10,025 --> 00:27:13,544
people, and it builds a lot of confidence when they get jobs. And that's something

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00:27:13,544 --> 00:27:17,370
that, you know, helps the mental health of this country clearly.

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00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:20,870
And everybody needs a role model and everybody needs a coach. So thanks for coming

442
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:24,615
on. Appreciate your HALO and Dave over the years and, hopefully, we can send

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00:27:24,615 --> 00:27:28,455
more people your way to, to get to the next level. Thanks so

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00:27:28,455 --> 00:27:29,595
much. Awesome.