Episode #612: Building Community Through Contrast Therapy-Carrie Bacon's Vision for 180 Degree Bathhouse

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This is Pete Moore on Halo Talks NYC. I have the pleasure of

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bringing in straight from Kansas City by way of other

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unknown locations, Carrie Bacon. She's gonna be

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starting up 180 Degree, 180 Degree Bathhouse,

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and we're excited because she is an expert on all things

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contrast therapy, and she piqued my interest on some

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pretty awesome and detailed LinkedIn posts. So I wanted to bring her to

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our Halo community at large. Carrie, welcome to the show. Thank you

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so much. I'm happy to be here. Awesome. So you've got a

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background in acupuncture, bodywork. You

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know, I say you gotta at least have 10,000 hours to become an expert at

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anything. Seems like you got way more than that. So give us your background

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and then I've got some questions for you on some of these

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modalities, if you will. And then we'll talk about your new venture.

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Amazing. So I am a classically trained

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acupuncturist. I went to Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

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before it rebranded as Pacific College of Health and Sciences.

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I have a Master of Science in Traditional Oriental Medicine.

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But I came to Chinese medicine after a

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series of injuries as a dancer. And so

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I took the path of educating myself and all the things

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that healed me when I was injured. So

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I saw my acupuncturist, he referred me to Asian bodywork

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therapy, Thai massage, nutrition, herbal

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medicine. And so I launched very heavily into

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my primary education in Chinese medicine with a whole lot of other tools in my

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basket. And then I'm an

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ever-curious person. So the education just never stopped.

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Gotcha. That's great. Well, welcome to the

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Halo ecosystem because I think we need more people

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like you that have, one, had

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frustrations that they cured and then became an expert in those things

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because I think there's a lot of still snake oil and people telling me things

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that they don't really understand. So, efficacy and

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education, I think, is a key to success in workout recovery,

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anything related to longevity. So, a couple quick

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questions for you first. Acupuncture,

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cold plunge, infrared sauna, how do all these things

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kind of work in conjunction in the

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body or maybe contradict each other if you do them in the wrong

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order? And, how do you kind of rank these

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things in your own mind of here's the primary things

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I do or I want to be doing? Okay.

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So— That's a big question. So, take whichever piece of it you'd like.

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The way I take a lot of these things is there's a Venn diagram and

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there's overlap and different things

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treat, let's say, sleep. I'm not

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going to use the same modalities for somebody who is struggling

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with sleep as I am going to use with

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an athlete who's recovering from an injury from a

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deadlift or a person who

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is dealing with metabolic

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disorders and diabetes. However,

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a lot of these modalities overlap in the center.

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I look at it, you know, I love the saying, your comfort zone will

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kill you. Okay. And, some of these

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modalities are meant to really get us out of our

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comfort zone. so that our

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addiction to total homeostasis of our environment and our lives

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gets knocked over and our own intelligence learns how to take

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the reins of constantly healing and navigating

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the different stressors of life. And, with a lot of these things,

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we take the idea of some of these stressors make

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us better at navigating

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the innate stressors of life. Gotcha. And

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so— Well said. Well, thank you. So, one of the

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questions I have related to some of the

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concepts that have launched, which I thought would be

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thriving 1,000-location

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franchisee-franchisor relationships in workout

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recovery, as an example, I feel like they just didn't

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really come up with the prescription. Or, to say,

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okay, Pete, you do cycling. I do

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SoulCycle a couple days a week. I do Solidcore a couple days a week. Here's

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what you should be doing after or before a cycling class.

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Here's what you should be doing before bed or after or when you

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wake up. Do you feel like what's the missing piece of

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the workout recovery component that would

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make this mass market? So,

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one, I think that sometimes

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we get off on

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our ability to optimize by being

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overly focused on optimization. Some of these modalities

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are just meant to be interwoven as daily

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practices, not necessarily only for

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recovery optimization, because if you are already a recovered individual and you

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have already used these modalities to be your best,

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most thriving self, you don't need as

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much directed recovery modality.

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So if I give you a better foundation, if I give you

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a tool that helps to heal cracks in

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your foundation, and I show you the path of how you

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interweave things, you then don't need to recover as

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much. If I show you that Consistent sauna use

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helps to navigate a long run,

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a heavy deadlift, a poor meal

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choice, too much microplastics in your water, and

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you're using it consistently, you don't have to think so much

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about how you optimize it. Interesting. We get very, very

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protocol-focused. And, if we're overly protocol-focused, we get

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so mired in the details that we never actually just take action.

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So, I find that in so many other cultures, if we look

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specifically at sauna and sauna being both sides of the

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contrast, if you say sauna in any Nordic country, it means

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both the heated room and all

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the time that you spend between the heat and the cold and

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the cold water immersion often in a wild body of water that

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comes after and you do this multi-times. And,

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it's done by felt sense. It's not a

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prescriptive time protocol. It is

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the way I feel in my body. And, I find that

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especially in the U.S., we've lost that felt sense and we

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look so prescriptively at things that we miss some of the

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magic.

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This is Pete Moore. I want to let you in on a little secret. There's

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this company called Promotion Vault, and what they do is they give out rewards

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from retailers that allow you to incentivize your

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members without having to do zero down and one month free,

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or giving away shakes or giving away t-shirts. What you want to do

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is build a rewards program that lasts, that people value,

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and that doesn't discount your own products and services. So here's the deal.

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There's something called Rewards Vault. The Rewards Vault is going to allow

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a member to set up their own profile. They are going to answer

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questions. You are gonna get those answers. You're gonna be able to target those

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members and you're gonna reward them inside your club,

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inside your spa, and outside of the club and outside of the spa

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to get them to become loyal, to get them to pay their monthly dues

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and to be rewarded properly for the actions. A lot of companies

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are cutting back on rewards. You shouldn't be. Promotion Vault's your

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answer. Trust me, this is real.

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So, I was going to pivot to acupuncture. Yeah. About

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25 years ago, I was in a meeting and I was stressed out. I was

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running this internet company when the internet was not in its

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best heyday, let's say. Okay. This guy said, you got

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to go to this acupuncturist. And, he gave me this acupuncturist's number. And, I was

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like, this is such bullshit and snake oil

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magic and there's no way this is going to work. And, I got out of

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there, I was like, holy cow, I cannot believe how

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much different I feel when I left that acupuncture

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session. Why hasn't acupuncture become as

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mainstream as it should and is in other

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cultures, in other countries? I know modern

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acupuncture kind of gave it a run and had some good results

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pre-COVID but kind of never really resurrected themselves. So, is

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acupuncture the next frontier like

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Pilates is right now? We're going to be talking about acupuncture in a

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couple years as the next big modality or not ever?

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I think that we'll look at it more as a return to

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intelligence. You're looking at thousands

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of years of medical discipline

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before we started looking at the system so microscopically.

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And I think that, you know, I look at the

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waves and science is often 10 to 20

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years ahead of medicine.

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And the way we've designed our medical system, it

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has to be very, very addicted to

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its current understanding in order to not be challenged.

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And that is part of why

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Chinese medicine, acupuncture being one piece of Chinese medicine,

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has perhaps not swept across the US. We

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also have major organizations

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that their job is

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to protect scope of practice. Mm-hmm.

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And a very specific scope of practice happens

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to hold mastery of

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areas of health of which it is given zero

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hours of education. And, there have been

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times that incredible proof of

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science, so to speak, so proof of acupuncture

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scientifically has been squashed.

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Dr. Becker wrote a book, The Body Electric,

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years ago. He was very much a scientific doctor

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and he was able to prove the flow of electricity and the flow

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of the channels of Chinese medicine through the body. And his

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work was shut down for a period of years. And now,

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there are a number of practitioners and scientific

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researchers who are going back to that body of

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intelligence, that body of work, and bringing it back into— Interesting.

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The conversations around health longevity,

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we are electromagnetic beings, acupuncture works along

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those electric currents is one very simplistic way to look

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at it. And so, I feel like where there was a

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fall-off, we are at the front of a

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resurgence especially as we are more focused on

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healthspan over lifespan. And

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more holistic ways to encourage the body to heal itself.

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And, that we're starting to understand

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the effects of taking a very simplistic lens, a very

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focused lens and treating an aspect, a

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symptom. It's like treating one color of the total spectrum.

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I'm going to give a pill to this color blue but I'm missing the fact

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that there's an entire rainbow present. And that when

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you start to look from a truly holistic lens, you

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start to see that the human system is a full spectrum

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and that to give its most vital health, you have to attend to the full

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spectrum. Gotcha. That makes sense to

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me. As an analogy,

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Carrie Means, who's been a big advocate of

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the food that's being intaken by our

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population and that we have to fix things at the

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intake level and we have to call out nutrition.

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Yep. And really, that is a

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national policy lobbying,

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hardcore, in-your-face

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tactic that I think is getting some traction. When you take a look

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at Some of the things that we are talking about related to

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maybe expanding the view of different

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modalities, maybe trying to educate doctors that

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really have no economic incentive into thinking

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the way that we're thinking about this or, hey, you don't

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need to try to convince a pharmaceutical company that

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acupuncture is better than them selling you a recurring pill at a

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98% gross margin. Like, you're never going to do that. So

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when you take a look at— and maybe this is kind of leading into your

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180-degree bathhouse— but

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do you kind of view what you're doing and

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what people like you are doing in their own communities with their own clients,

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say, you know, I'm not going to try and like take on like the national,

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you know, um, you know, center of thought power.

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I'm just going to kind of do things on my level. Yep. I'm going to

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educate And then it's going to spread like word of mouth and

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people are going to get results. And like, that's— it's a groundswell

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of the way we think, not necessarily try and go like

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top down. Let me go bottom up. Is that kind of what's going on? We're

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absolutely going bottom up. So when you look at—

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so the multi— the multiple facets

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of what I do and then what my partner and I are

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working to build, it's the foundation that everything else

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gets built on in a better way. You cannot build

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on a cracked foundation. If you paint walls but the

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foundation is cracked, what have you done? Nothing. And so,

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acupuncture is a great foundation.

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Bathhouses, contrast therapy are

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a foundation that every other health input

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stands upon to grow better.

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And so,

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we also get to attend to it from a

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community social wellness aspect when we look at

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180 Degrees Bathhouse. You know, there are a number of

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bathhouse companies on the coast that have been able to raise and they're

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expanding and they're getting a lot of traction. They're getting

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a lot of visibility. Right. I am a person who 100% believes

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rising tides raises all ships. And, the center of the

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country tends to have a bit of a lag

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in adoption from what happens on the coasts. Right. And

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so, we are at the front of—

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we're finishing the raise for our first location. 180

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Degrees Bathhouse is not a 10,000, 20,000,

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40,000-square-foot facility. It's a micro bathhouse

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model. And so, we are building in 1,600 square feet.

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It is a model that can be plugged into

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a lot of communities that don't have the population or

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the adoption yet because it's new. There are

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no community thermic wellness, social

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wellness spaces for 700 square miles. From Kansas City, you fly

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to Chicago, Nashville, Austin. And

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so, When you

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look at— we had this, it's sort of absolute serendipity.

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We had been and we will be looking at building out these

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larger models in the future, but we

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fell into this perfectly positioned

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location, 1,600 square feet. And the developer said to us, what could you

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do with this? And my partner, Kyle Stepi, walked the

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space. And he called me up and he said, Carrie, what about a micro

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bathhouse? And we had some resistance in

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looking at what the broad sweep of modality and application we had

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looked at with doing 10,000 square feet. And all of a sudden

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realized that when we look at the markets that we wish to go into,

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these unserved markets, being able to put something that is

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actually a community center into community is

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exactly the pathway for market adoption.

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Isolation was recently deemed a

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health epidemic. Loneliness is a health epidemic.

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And, being able to put bathhouses, which gives you access

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to that application of contrast therapy, you go into the sauna, you have your sweat,

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you take a moment of pause to allow your body to settle down and calm

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down, and then you rinse off and you step into a beautifully

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designed cold water basin. You do this a few times through.

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This is Pete Moore. Here's the last tip for you of the podcast.

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We are partnered up with a company called HigherDOSE,

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higherdose.com. They are the leader in workout

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recovery products, infrared technology, LED

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light masks, neck enhancers, and other

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products such as PEMF mats. And sauna blankets.

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If you have not gotten on the workout recovery train yet,

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your time and your stop is now. You gotta get these products

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00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,780
in there before these workout recovery and spas end up

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saturating your market, having your members walk out of the club and going into

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one of their locations for $200 per month where they're paying

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00:18:30,952 --> 00:18:34,765
$39 to you. Let's become an expert in workout recovery

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if we are already an authority in workouts. HigherDOSE,

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check it out. There's a wholesale code, and we look

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forward to helping you augment your products and services

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to meet the demands of your members. And hey, let's get people

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happy, healthy, and sweating, and the recovery should be

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just as good as the workout.

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I went to a, it was called the Clinton Health Matters

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Conference, and it was probably 10 years ago. I don't know if you can look

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that up, but I went there and it was

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Clinton and it was 30 healthcare executives. And Clinton said

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to the CEO of Humana, I think this guy Bruce Broussard back then,

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so what's the biggest issue in the healthcare industry right now? And the guy said

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loneliness. And we like latched onto that to the point where

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what we're doing on the bank— so our day job is we help people buy

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and sell companies in the halo sector. came up with the acronym HALO— Health,

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Active Lifestyle, Outdoors— and help people raise capital once they get their

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prototypes done with institutions, private equity. But

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we latched on to that and said, like, our mission is to kind of bring

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capital to try and solve loneliness, solve diabetes,

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and solve obesity, because those 3 can be solved. And

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what we need to do is when people like you are out there

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getting a concept and actually pull off the first concept, then everyone's got to

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get friends and family money before someone's like, hey, is this real or not?

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When you're ready to scale, we have to be in a position to help groups

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and people like you scale. So that's kind of like where we fit in the

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ecosystem of Halo is say entrepreneurs

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that want to be relevant and want to touch as many people

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as they can have to have capital because we're playing in a capitalist society. Yep.

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You better have 7 of those 10 letters or else you can't bootstrap your way

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to greatness. you know, in this era. So

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we're 100% on board with that. When you take a look at

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180 Degree Bathhouse, if there's an

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analogy to make, which you maybe say like, I don't want to make that, and

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that's fine, but is it kind of like a

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tightened or like a smaller other

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ship that would be on a coast or a bathhouse that's in

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New York? There's a group called The Bathhouse that might have Raised

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like, I don't know, $32 million on like a

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$300 million valuation or something crazy. I believe they're now at

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$41 million on a $600 million

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valuation currently. I don't know how the math works on that, but

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regardless of that— Neither do I. It kind of shows what the appetite is,

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I guess, for this. And look, the bathhouses

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that I've been to, like Korean bathhouses, either in

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New York, or there's one in Dallas that was part of a hotel that I

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stayed in a long time ago. Um, I mean, that

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definitely is like mainstream in, in a number of countries where

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that's— people go there, you know, a couple times a week or more, right?

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So we are definitely positioning ourselves to be the place that people go

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a few times a week. And as to your question about

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Othership and Bathhouse, so if you

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So, a little background as far as training goes. My partner,

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Kyle, and I are both certified sauna masters. We are

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2 of a very small collective of people

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certified by the Deutsche Academy of Sauna. We are also

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breathwork and intentional cold exposure facilitators. So, we

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are practitioners of the modalities in addition

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to being business builders. Kyle has

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a brick-and-mortar business building background, and I have a very broad

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sweep hospitality background. So, those

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3 parts come together in what we're creating.

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And so, we will do ritual. We are breathwork facilitators.

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We will do off-goose. Off-goose is the towel waving ceremony with the

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pour-over of the essential oils. We will do guided rounds. We will

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also have self-guided time because some people need to be

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handheld through the modality enough times that they can

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allow their interoception, which is the sense of looking inside

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yourself and listening to your own body's intuition, to self-guide through. There

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will be noisy hours for people who want to be in the corner of the

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sauna doing deals, just like they do at Russian Turkish

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Bathhouse in the Lower East Side of New York City, just like they do in

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so many places where people go to do all the

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community things, whether it's a business meeting or a conversation with a best friend, they

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do it in the sauna. Exactly. And so, we're seeking to be the

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intersection of all of those places. And that's one of the

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beauties of doing this micro-community model,

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that it is the pathway

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for community traction and building of

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community, where you can go and be by yourself in a corner and feel

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like you're with community. It solves for the loneliness question. Or you

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can go in with 10 to 15 of your friends and be able to do

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this all together. And that solves for third space with

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Got you. You also mentioned diabetes and obesity.

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And sauna and cold plunge are 2 of the

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most autonomous actions you can take, meaning self-directed. It gives you

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your own sense of authority of self and mastery of what you're challenged with.

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They've both been proven to increase metabolic

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flexibility, which means you better solve for

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insulin and glucose. And, the studies have been

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done that when you sit in a sauna, you essentially— my partner calls it the

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executive workout— you get while sitting still in a

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sweat what looks like cardiovascularly as a

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cardiovascular workout, riding a bike, going

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for a run. Yeah. We're invested in a company called HigherDOSE,

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which I'd love to introduce you to if you don't know them. But, the infrared

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sauna blanket is a game changer. You can lose 800 calories

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sitting in there wrapping yourself up.

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Electromagnetic fields. Yep. Pulsating

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PEMF mat has been a game changer for me for

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ability to sleep. It's totally

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changed the way I'm able to get into a deeper sleep.

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And, the red light therapy, we just came out with red light therapy showerhead. Which

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has gotten rave reviews. So, I'm

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fully on board with all of these as becoming mainstream and

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hopefully people— this resonates with

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people. I think we've kind of moved on from

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like this isn't biohacking, this is actual how you

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should live your life. Yep. I've resisted that phrase for a long time

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even though I get taken into all those conferences Right.

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I'm wearing circadian glasses

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as I'm in artificial light. I go with my friends at

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Vivaray to conferences because I can talk to the engineer. I can

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also talk to the person who has no idea that light is a spectrum.

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00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,408
And so, it solves for— it's an interesting question. You brought up infrared and it's

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something that we're asked about a lot. And, being a practitioner, I

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look at infrared and I look at finished dry

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humid sauna as totally separate modalities. And, when

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people ask me, I consistently say

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infrared red light panels are phenomenal

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home practice. Get out into community into

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a bathhouse and a Finnish sauna and now you've woven those 2

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worlds together to have a better foundation of life and health.

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Awesome. So, look, I'm glad we got connected.

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Thanks for putting up those awesome LinkedIn detailed post because

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00:26:22,802 --> 00:26:26,479
it got my attention. Um, and you know, if you want to send us the

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00:26:26,479 --> 00:26:30,123
materials on your cap raise, we got a couple people in your local area there

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00:26:30,252 --> 00:26:33,527
that may have an interest. Amazing. Um, and I'd love to do a,

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00:26:33,624 --> 00:26:37,317
um, a follow-up, and you know, we can do a push once you get

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that, uh, ready to open. So we're a big fan of what you're doing.

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00:26:41,106 --> 00:26:44,847
Appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much, Pete. Keep doing great things. Thank

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00:26:44,847 --> 00:26:44,960
you.

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00:26:51,903 --> 00:26:55,525
This is Pete Moore on Halo Talks, your captain speaking. I am the

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00:26:55,525 --> 00:26:59,307
founder and managing partner at Integrity Square. We've been around now

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00:26:59,451 --> 00:27:02,864
for 15 and a half years. We have been helping

425
00:27:02,976 --> 00:27:06,325
people like yourselves get capital, do mergers and

426
00:27:06,325 --> 00:27:10,027
acquisitions, consulting, strategic advice in the health,

427
00:27:10,172 --> 00:27:13,972
active lifestyle, and outdoor halo sector. Trying to help as

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00:27:14,037 --> 00:27:17,072
many entrepreneurs as possible get to the next level,

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00:27:17,731 --> 00:27:20,991
take that inflection point, and be the force behind your growth.

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00:27:21,827 --> 00:27:25,216
We are helping companies that have at least $3 million of

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00:27:25,264 --> 00:27:28,862
EBITDA, around $10 million of revenue, and

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00:27:28,974 --> 00:27:32,331
we are positioned to help you get institutional growth capital

433
00:27:33,070 --> 00:27:36,845
or to negotiate deals with strategic partners. If you

434
00:27:36,845 --> 00:27:40,561
go to integritysq.com, You

435
00:27:40,561 --> 00:27:44,200
can see our capabilities deck. Happy to set up a consultation at any time.

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00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:47,905
That is free of charge, and we look forward to helping

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00:27:48,278 --> 00:27:52,107
solve obesity, loneliness, and diabetes. Go Halo!