Episode #552: Fletcher Pilates Around the Globe-Kyria Sabin on Education, Expansion, and Community Impact

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This is Pete Moore on Halo Talks NYC. I have the pleasure of

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bringing one of the most esteemed platforms in the

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Pilates space coming out of Tucson, Arizona, Fletcher

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Pilates. Kyrgios Sabin, who we met one time at a

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studio event with BFS, is joining us today. We're going to talk

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about the growth of Pilates. We're going to talk about her international

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licensing program. And we're going to talk about how awesome it is

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for Pilates as a return on time investment. I'd

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say it's the, most prolific to see changes

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in the mirror and to feel the changes in your body in the

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shortest amount of time. So, Curia, welcome to our show. Thank

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you, Pete. Happy to be here. So, so this started with,

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with Ron Fletcher back in '93. Do you wanna

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just give everyone a little bit of the history of the

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Pilates and how this kind of has become your lifelong

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career and vision for the future? Sure. I

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started studying with Ron Fletcher in 1991 and,

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had no intention of teaching Pilates. I was working in the art world and

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planning to go to law school and focus on art law. So I was on

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a completely different track and, always into fitness

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and movement and, went to Braun's studio in

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Los Angeles when I lived there. I was, directing an art gallery

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and caught the bug and fell in love with the work and

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and went to a workshop with Ron. And he said, you should teach

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this work. And I said, I'm not gonna teach this work. I'm I'm headed to

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law school. And and and at that point, no one knew what Pilates was. In

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fact, it wasn't even called Pilates. It was called body contrology.

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And, but he planted the seed, and,

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I called him up a few days later, and I said, if I were to

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teach this work, how would I go about it? Because no no schools existed at

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the time. And, so he basically

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gave me this he pieced together an education going to

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London and New York and Houston and Los Angeles and,

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studying with different people and learning very specific things. And so

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that was my introduction, and I had Ron Fletcher,

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as my teacher and mentor. And, he studied with Jessup

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Pilates, for two decades from 1948 to

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'67 when Joe passed away. And, I now

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have the privilege of of running his lineage and running his school.

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And you started out as a a Duke grad I did. Then

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became a, a certified massage therapist. So,

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as you were going through these machinations in in your mind about, you

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know, where where is this going, and and a lot

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of people thought, you know, Pilates, they didn't really understand what that was.

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You know, what what kind of put you over the edge? Was, one, was it

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kind of the ability to be taught, you know,

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under that type of, you know, master trainer that excited you?

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Was it did you do a couple classes and say, you know, this is something

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I've never experienced? What what was the what was the linchpin, if you

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will, for Yeah. Well, I was I was a client for almost a year and

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Gotcha. Noticed huge changes in my body. I was used to doing extreme

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everything. And, you know, whether it was running or swimming or

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or playing tennis, everything I did was, as

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as much as hard as I could get. And Okay.

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And, when I studied with Ron, I realized that it was, you know, it's really

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the first introduction to,

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as an adult, to high quality movement and quality over

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quantity and, realized that the the results were much

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better. It's, you know, definitely more efficient in terms of

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time. So I had a call from, received a call

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from Karma Kienstler, who was one of the founding members of Kang and Ranch.

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And she was just starting a Pilates program in Tucson at the time.

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And I was planning my exodus from Los Angeles and wanting to go

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back to New York and and go to law school and get back into New

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York is my favorite place on Earth. And, and she

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said, would you come to Tucson for a couple of months and help me

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develop this Pilates program? And and I thought that's, you know,

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that's a great stepping stone to getting out of Los Angeles to sort

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of going into the next chapter, but I never intended

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to devote my life to this work. And I think that the real,

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for me, it was starting to teach. It was working with, one

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person at a time and realizing the impact that I could

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have. And and I was really the only person teaching

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Pilates outside of Canyon Ranch in Arizona.

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Gotcha. And then, you know, as you've looked at some of these

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opportunities, we talked just before we got on here that you're, you know,

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Fletcher Pilates exists now in, Korea, in different

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parts of The US, under a licensing program. Was that

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something that you, proactively did, or was it

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more of a response to, you know, people that have experiences

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with you to say, you know, we need this here. How can you make that

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happen? It it was both organic and proactive.

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I when I first opened a studio,

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I was just trying to find Pilates teachers,

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to to fill the need. And I realized that I really wanted

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to develop high level teachers, and, so we

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started a school. And, that was with Ron's

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Wessing, but it wasn't really his, his lineage of the

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work. And over several years, he

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felt that the Pilates teachers should learn should learn through apprenticeship. So you

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should basically live under the wing of someone.

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And when they deem you fit to teach, they they sort of put

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you out on the floor and, convinced him that that wasn't the

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way of the world today. And, his work would basically,

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go away when he died. And so he agreed

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to, look at a program that that I and and several of

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his teachers put together, and he was very much involved in the

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development of the program. And after we developed the program, we had people coming in

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from Asia, from Europe, from South America wanting to study

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his lineage of the work. And and and what we realized is that we

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could reach many more people if we sent teachers to those

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countries. And it's cost prohibitive and, you know,

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really difficult for for a lot of people to leave for for any length

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of time to to study this work. So that's

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it is it was, intentional, but it

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wasn't I didn't decide, you know, I want this work to be in Brazil,

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or I want this work to be in Canada or wherever it is in the

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world. It was, very much the interest came, and then we

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worked with the teachers over a course period of time. And then,

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eventually, you know, gave them the right to to license the the the

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program. You know, you look at Pilates versus,

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I can become a personal trainer probably over a weekend. I can

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learn TRX and get a certification, you know, over a couple days as well.

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Can you just talk about and maybe, reiterate what it takes if

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somebody becomes a Pilates instructor, especially a Fletcher

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Pilates instructor, how much time and intensity has gone into

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that? Sure. Well, it's we we first

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want our students to have experienced the work. It

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was it was really amusing to me because when I first opened the school,

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Pilates was sort of a new thing. And it was,

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you know, as it is now, it was sort of, considered trendy.

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And people would call up, and they'd say, I wanna be a Pilates teacher.

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And they'd often sometimes say, I wanna be a Pilates teacher and,

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or some version of that. And I'd say, well, have you, you know, have you

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experienced the work first? And oftentimes, they hadn't. They wanted to

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go from, you know, just off the street to becoming a

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teacher. And so we insist that anyone

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who wants to go through our program, experience the work for at least

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a a year on a consistent basis so they get the the work in their

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bodies. And, the first step to going through our program is

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is the mat work program. So, they complete the mat

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work program, which allows them to teach mat work in gyms and,

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studios and parks. And, the thing I love about that is

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that they start teaching before they may they commit to going through the the comprehensive

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program. And then the comprehensive program takes about a year

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to go through. So all told, it's it's probably a year and a half, and

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then we have advanced continuing education, which is another year.

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So to be a full fledged Fletcher teacher is is

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about two years. Gotcha. And how how many Fletcher certified

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instructors are there worldwide right now? Well, different

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levels of of teachers. I would say they're they're probably between five

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hundred and seven fifty between the mat work teachers and and

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the the, licensed providers and and the fully

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certified teachers.

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This is Pete Moore. I wanna let you in on a little secret. There's this

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company called Promotion Vault, and what they do is they give out rewards

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from retailers that allow you to incentivize your

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members without having to do zero down and one month

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free or giving away shakes or giving away t shirts.

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What you wanna do is build a rewards program that lasts,

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that people value, and that doesn't discount your own products and

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services. So here's the deal. There's something called rewards vault.

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The rewards vault is going to allow a member to set up their own

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profile. They are going to answer questions. You are gonna get those

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answers. You're gonna be able to target those members, and you're gonna reward

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them inside your club, inside your spa, and outside of

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the club, and outside of the spa to get them to become loyal,

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to get them to pay their monthly dues, and to be

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rewarded properly for the actions. A lot of companies are cutting back on

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rewards. You shouldn't be. Promotion Vault's your answer. Trust

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me. This is real.

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You know, as you've seen, I just read something today that,

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ClassPass, announced their top twenty twenty

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four workouts, and Pilates is number one,

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on the trends and, and usage and and demand.

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When you look at some of these groups like Club Pilates,

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you know, Solid Core, SLT, how does that make

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you feel about, you know, the exclusivity of

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Pilates versus now the mass market appeal?

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One is like, hey. Like, this this is as big as I as I

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wanted it to be or it's getting there. At the same time, you know,

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maybe there's some things that you like. And there might be some

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shortcuts here or things that are not, you know, how Joseph

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Pilate or Ron Fletcher, you know, the efficacy of it

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maybe is is, you know, maybe, like, you know,

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not as as as as the

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technique is not what it exactly should be, but is that okay? Is it

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not okay? You know, give me somebody who's been around the industry, sometimes you're like,

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I like how the industry's evolved, the price point. There's no $9

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Pilates, thankfully. Right? No one's commoditized it. At the same

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time, now it's like mass market. It might be you're not using the

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term properly or you're where where are you at in

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that kind of yin yang of No. Well, at first, when

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when Club Pilates started, I, you know, I

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I I have to admit I took issue with it, you know, bringing

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12 bodies into a room without a lot of preparation and getting them,

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through, a workout primarily on one

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piece of equipment. But but I think there are some

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very good club Pilates teachers. And in fact, some

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of our teachers, who've got been through our program are teaching for club

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Pilates. And so I think that as businesses

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like that have developed, they've they've,

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refined, their their, methodology. They're

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they've refined their programs of teaching. And

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the first, you know, the first rule for any business dealing with human

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bodies is do no harm. And so, you know, my concern was first,

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are we gonna see a lot of entries coming out of these group reformer

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classes, and is that gonna give Pilates a bad

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name? That is happening to some extent, but it's not as

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as, widespread as I thought it would be.

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So I I do think that people who,

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want to learn Pilates at, say, a

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deeper, more comprehensive level, whether it's a teacher or a

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client, oftentimes, the the Club Pilates

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entree is is a good stepping stone to that. So,

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we've had several of our clients come to us and say, you know,

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I've I've been going to club Pilates or I've been going to this other group

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or former class for, a year or whatever.

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And, and I wanna take it to the next level. And so,

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I think there are as with anything, I think it's you know,

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there are pluses and minuses. Mhmm. Bill, we, we we

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teach a a business school class. We started doing that during COVID.

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And I I I prefer and I I want people to learn,

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during a live format. I I don't necessarily wanna tape it and then let them,

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you know, consume it because I don't know if they're gonna fully appreciate

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what, you know, I'm trying to educate them

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on. As you see the proliferation of, you know, now

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there's Pilates, you know, reformers that are going to the home

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and there's, you know, a video screen and you're doing, you know, tape

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classes. You know, obviously, you got the injury component

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to it and and the fact that people might not be, you know, doing the

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exercises the way, you know, they would be if they were, you

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know, had a a private or semi private. Are you sometimes

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concerned about that? Or, you know, as long as Pilates is getting

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out there, that they'll they'll they'll find their path. And would you is

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that something you would wanna play in? Or do you say, look. I'm I'm I've

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got a fine line of how I wanna do things? Well, I think that

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COVID, you know, gave us the ability to teach,

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from a distance and teach online, and there are definitely benefits

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to it. I won't work with anyone who I haven't worked with in person

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first. So, once we establish a program

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and if they have a home studio or they're on vacation at their second home

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or or wherever in the world, I'll work with them. But it's I I

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consider it supplemental. Mhmm. So to start with someone

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online, I think, is, it's difficult. It's it's, not

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only in terms of really understanding their body from a

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360 degree view, but it's also

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I I think you you lose the energy. So I it's it's really become a

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luxury to work with people in person, both for the teacher

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and and for the the client or the student. And,

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ultimately and I have one client who, he always

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wants to give sort of a a numerical

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percentage to the benefits that he, receives from

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each experience. He says, I get about 75% when I work with you online,

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and I get about 90 plus percent when I work with you in person.

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And So I think there's there is a big difference.

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Yeah. From a standpoint of, you know, whether it's

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ClassPass, GymPass, and our wellness hub,

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some called, you know, eChimp has some called Wellpass.

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People are bouncing around to a lot of different studios and modalities.

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If you were to if I was to put you on the spot, let's say,

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like, now, if I said to you, you know, do

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Pilates and do what other exercise or

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group exercise program per week, because

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you're not necessarily gonna do Pilates seven days a week. What what would be

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your go to either on flexibility or core

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that I should, you know, do a regimen of Pilates and what?

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Yeah. Yeah. I used to say Pilates and cardio. So I used to say because

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Pilates you know, even when you're an advanced mover, you do get your heart

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moving. But a combination of Pilates and cardio,

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and cardio is, obviously super important for the heart, for the

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circulation, and for the brain. And, and, you

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know, as in the past however many years, it's we all

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now know that that, strength training is

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is, super important, especially,

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for women who could, you know, be struggling with osteopenia, osteoporosis.

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So it's, I try to include as much strength work in

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the Pilates programs that I teach. And, but

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there it isn't enough. And there needs to be the progressive

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overload, and and I so it needs to

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ideally, an ideal would be cardio five days a

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week, Pilates two to three days a week, and strength training two to

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three days a week. Got it. And then And the Pilates covers the the, you

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know, covers the flexibility and the balanced work. Yeah. I've done

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several Pilates classes, and, it's usually not the next day

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that I that I feel the muscles that have been used. It's usually the second

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day that I feel like I can't move as much, which is

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amazing, you know, after I get through that and and turn into a practice. You

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know, with the with the onset of all of the workout recovery,

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you know, technologies that are out there, we're involved with a company called,

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HigherDose, which has infrared saunas and and electromagnetic

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fields. Are there certain things that you've prescribed to your clients or that you

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use that, you know, feels like you get the best recovery or

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the best inflammation reduction or, you know, is a

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great Yeah. I I I'm very, you know, cognizant of

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scope and practice. And so I I share things

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without, you know, using the word prescribe or or strongly

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suggest. I really love, infrared saunas. I think that

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they, it's just, I've experienced

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infrared saunas on a regular basis. And I I think way more than the cold

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therapy, it has, a profound effect on my body.

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So that that would be and and, you know, in terms of modalities,

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acupuncture to me is if you can find a really good acupuncturist,

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it's it's holistic much like Pilates is. And so,

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and massage therapy, deep, deep, deep tissue massage therapy.

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Mhmm. And then from a standpoint of you you kinda

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touched on this before, but if if you're in a class and

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it's a a semi private or or a group format, what do you

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think the right mix is, you know, participants

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or, instructors to members where you feel

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like people are getting the right oversight? So the way my studio works is

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we everyone starts with, private sessions, and

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we make them as affordable as we can. Three private

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sessions, and then we they can segue into semi private sessions,

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and, we work with four people at a time, so what we call a quartet.

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And, sort sort of a play on words, c o r e t e

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t. And then, our group classes are

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no more than, say, 15 people. So we don't we don't ever

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work with, huge groups. I I work with a larger group at the

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university I teach, the dancers at the University of

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Arizona and, am instructing them to become,

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mat work teachers. And so that is a larger group. And when I go to

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conferences, I work with larger groups, but those are mainly teachers.

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This is Pete Moore. Here's the last tip for you of the podcast.

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We are partnered up with a company called Higher Dose, higher dose

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dot com. They are the leader in workout

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335
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If you have not gotten on the workout recovery train

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yet, your time and your stop is now. You

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end up saturating your market, having your members walk out of the club

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and going into one of their locations for $200 per

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00:21:32,615 --> 00:21:36,130
month where they're paying 39 to you. Let's become an

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expert in workout recovery if we are already the authority in

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wholesale code, and we look forward to helping

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you all bet your products and services to meet the demands of your

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00:21:50,905 --> 00:21:54,525
members. And, hey, let's get people happy, healthy,

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and sweaty, and the recovery should be just as good as the workout.

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And, the last question I have here is, are

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there certain age groups that you've been,

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pleasantly surprised that have embraced Pilates? I feel like,

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you know, with my mom's age group, you know, that just resonates

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with them. They're not really as intimidated by,

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you know, a reformer or or a Cadillac or any kind of, you know,

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machine that maybe have a lot you know, it looks like there's a lot of

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apparatus that, you know, could be viewed as, you know, like going

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into a, you know, an evil amusement park, if you will. Yeah.

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So, are there you know, there's obviously a lot of kids that that are doing

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it now and athletes where, you know, before you'd never think that, like, football

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players would be doing, you know, Pilates, but they are. And they're doing

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dance classes and they're doing barre classes, you know, because of some of

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the movements that you need, to be successful.

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So are there any any cohorts or moments that people

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that are running a Pilates studio right now that maybe they

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should try and find these little pockets of of

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demographics that they Yeah. I think that intuitive? Yeah.

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The demographic that, you know, tends to, go to a boutique

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fitness studio, whether it's Pilates, is, you know, it's it's women in their

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fifties and sixties. And, I really enjoy working

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with, younger people and older people. So I I work with the,

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Boys and Girls Clubs of Southern Arizona, and we're

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developing a Pilates program for them. And one of my

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passions is teaching, young people about

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their bodies and teaching them to respect their bodies and how their

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bodies are put together. And, my hope is that it

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it just that knowledge would, you know, maybe

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prevent, obesity, maybe prevent,

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drug abuse, maybe, maybe, you know, just that

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understanding of how the body is put together and how to move the

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body, could have a positive, ripple effect.

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And then I love working with older people. My, my father who's

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90, just turned 90, broke his hip. And,

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he reached out to me when we were on a family vacation over the

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summer, and he wanted me to develop a program for him. And,

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and I just you know, it's I what what I love is that

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people at any age can change their posture,

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can build strength, can improve their balance. And

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I think there's this idea that once you get to a certain age, it's just

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maintenance, and that's not so. Mhmm. That's not so. It's you know,

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people in their eighties and nineties can make huge improvements. So do you have

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any quotes for us, Kiria? Any quotes that, would be associated

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with you as a as a, you know, Kiria ism?

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No. It's it's a quote from my teacher, Ron Fletcher, and it's on the,

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inside flap of his book. And it's movement is life and life is

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movement, and we get out of it what we put into it. And I I

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love that quote. Great. Well, appreciate you making that

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decision not to go to law school. I think Chatt GBT might

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take over some of the, lawyers in this country by, by just

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typing in what kind of letter you need. Mhmm. And, for the for

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the work that you've done, we think anything related

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to Pilates and getting people together is gonna help solve some of the goals that

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that we have is, you know, solving loneliness, diabetes, and

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obesity. So look forward to continue to watch your

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growth, getting people around the world to, to better

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understand and utilize Pilates. And, congrats on

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everything you guys have built. Thank you, Pete. Thank you so much.

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Great.