From Local Ads to Global Brand: Crunch Fitness's Unique Growth Strategy with Founder, Doug Levine

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Welcome to Halo Talks Live Sid's Gym,

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October 17, 2024. We've got

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a great show for you today right before the pregame of the ALCS

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and NLCS, which we hope that New York Yankees and the New York

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Mets will come after this, and we'll do a postgame.

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Now what we have tonight is 2 guests that are coming on. They're

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gonna be representing the captain of Movement, which will be Sue

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Hitsman coming in from MELT Method. The pleasure of having

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Doug LaVine, who I call the king of branding in

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the health club industry, will be with us today. This might be one of his

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first interviews ever since he left Crunch. I don't know if that's

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true, but we are gonna go with that. I use the term halo.

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It stands for health, active lifestyle, outdoors. This is much

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bigger than wellness. Wellness was started by a guy at the Mayo

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Clinic to become the antonym of illness.

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Illness is a disease. Wellness is a

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lifestyle. I think halo is the evangelist movement

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that we need to be a part of. So I refer to everything as the

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halo sector, halo companies. And we're gonna

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tell you how we are getting money into solving loneliness,

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obesity, and diabetes by making sure that investment

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groups, wealthy investors, and strategic partners know that the

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halo sector is where you need to invest because that's where people are gonna be

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spending their money and that is self care. So I wanna thank

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Sid Ray Raymond here. Raman? Yes, sir. Exponential.

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We're gonna talk about his virtual reality treadmill that is next

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gen. You'll come down to the studio. Afterwards, we'll host you to a,

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a workout. Roger Harvey and Ethan, cofounders of

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Sids Gym here. We've got the AV crew. I wanna thank everyone there. My

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partner, Dave Ganulin, on the marketing side, and some of

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our sponsors, HigherDose on infrared products, melt

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method, BFS. And, we

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hopefully hopefully these this this conversation spawn some

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really good ideas, which turn into action, which turn into results, which turn

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into better lifestyles. So that's why we're here. Take a quick commercial break. Wanna

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thank everyone for coming. We are in front of a live studio audience

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at Sid's Gym. Take it away.

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Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

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treadmill into a novel simulator, Blending hardware, software,

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and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are immersive

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and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures, which

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empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to seniors,

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beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes, proprietary games,

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and virtual race courses offer a wide content library suitable for

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all.

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Now if you do what most people do when you have these symptoms, you pop

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a pill to mask your symptoms, you're setting yourself up for more

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problems down the road. If you think of your brain's pain response as the

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smoke detector going off when your toaster's on fire, taking a pain

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reliever is kinda like walking over to the smoke detector and pulling the batteries

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out to stop the alarm, but the toaster is still on fire.

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If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

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postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

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natural flow causing excessive tension compression and

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friction on the system which on a global level alters joint

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stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

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symptoms like prolonged muscle soreness, poor balance and

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flexibility, and low grade inflammation which causes your joints to

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ache all the time.

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Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

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treadmill into a novel simulator. Blending hardware, software

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and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are immersive

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and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures, which

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empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to

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seniors, beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes,

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proprietary games, and virtual race courses offer a wide content library

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suitable for all.

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And we are back at Sige Gym

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experiential is the equipment. Pete Moore is the host,

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and I'm a pleasure to have my good friend, Sue Hitchman here. Good to see

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you again. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming.

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Very, very, very tough woman to book on the show. Alright. Thank you for coming

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here. You are welcome. So, so you were here back in the day from

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1990 3 to 2006 in inside of Crunch.

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We've got a Crunch thread moving through this whole Yeah. You know, podcast. So give

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us a little background on how you got there and then what Crunch was

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like for you. Yeah. I mean, I I started in fitness,

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at 17 years old when Jazzercise was a thing.

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Oh, good. And then I moved down to New York, and I started auditioning. I

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landed a job at vertical club, and then one of the girls who was there

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was like, dude, you gotta work at Crunch. It's the best club. It's

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got such a great vibe. So I went and I

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auditioned, and I think Donna Cyrus is the one who

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hired me originally. Shout out to Donna who's here today. Pretty pretty sure.

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And, it was a family. It was a

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community, and I think that Doug really created

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a community of amazing fitness pros.

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And Roger pulled me into the office one time, and he

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said, hey. We've got a new program that we wanna do. We want you to

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get trained. And I didn't have any money at the time, so I said, I

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can't afford it. And he's like, no. We're gonna pay for it. And I thought

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I won an award. I I was like, wow. My, like, my my health

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club is supporting my education. And so that's

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really why I thought I was really a part of something new

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and different than any of the other health clubs because they were supporting

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education and trying new things. And by the time

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the 2nd year I was working with them, I was doing step, sculpt, stretch,

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hip hop, high impact aerobics. I taught everything there. Cycling when cycling.

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Yeah. When you look back to to Tug and starting the business and building that

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brand and then Roger coming in and a couple of the other, you know, key

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people at the top, you know, work working with Roger, you know, one, maybe talk

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about that relationship and how, you know, that helped kinda build the culture. And then

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knowing that that brand was always much bigger than it actually was in

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number of units. How did it made you feel as an employee, you know, growing?

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I think that's it is Crunch personified

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this I it seems like a massive company.

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But when you got in the internal workings of

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Crunch, it was a community. The instructors knew one

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another. We took each other's classes. We learned from one another.

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And I just think that it was a health club that supported the

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instructors and made them feel valuable. They

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paid us very well, and they really took an investment

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in the group exercise community, and

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then we also did personal training. So we were on the floor and teaching

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group classes and really growing a brand of

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community. And I think that's why our classes were always packed.

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People came back all of the time, and we always supported the other

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instructors and told each other to take other people's classes.

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Now if I'm correct, you were part of the the, best selling boot

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camps? At at Crunch, there was some DVD actions. If anyone has

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a DVD anymore I auditioned for the when Crunch became

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an ESPN 2 show, and I auditioned for it. And I landed

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I did I did a whole bunch of sculpt and strength and booty boot camp

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where they made me wear really, really short shorts, which was very weird and self

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conscious for me. And then I auditioned, and

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I got the boot camp video. I did a

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auditioned and I got the boot camp video. I did a crunch boot camp

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video and, it became one of the best

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sellers. It sold over a 1000000 copies worldwide, and it's still on

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the top ten best list for, boot camp videos.

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So you so you wrote a best seller as well. The sequel is is this

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book here. Right? That's Melt Performance. I've got the sequel. You also

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run a podcast called Anatomical Gangster. I do. Did I say it right? I

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do Anatomical Gangster. I do. Talk talk about what you've built at the

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melt melt method. And also talk about the areas that

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it should be going into, but maybe there's more education that's needed to to

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make it widespread. Yeah. I mean, I was a fitness pro. And in the late

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nineties, I got myself into chronic pain. I woke up one day, the bottom of

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my foot hurt me, and it kinda sent me into a tailspin

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of body wide ache and fatigue. And I went down the road to try to

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discover how to get myself out of pain, and I discovered this

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emerging field of neuroscience and fascial research that was trying to

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answer the same question. What's the relationship of fascia to our pain

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symptoms? And I became a founding member of the Fascial Research

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Society. I started bringing neuroscience and fascial research

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into the health clubs and was trying to teach it. And

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I came up with the idea of a term MELT, which at

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first stood for myofascial energetic length technique, but it's kind of

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outgrown its acronym. And it's just about taking a stiff body and turning it into

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a more malleable hydrated body. And what

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I discovered in fitness is that it it is kind of the dirty little secret

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of fitness as most of the fitness professionals and people in fitness are injured.

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So I approached the health club to say, hey. I wanna teach this as a

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group class. It exploded. It became a real

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phenomenon in the health clubs. And today, we've got 38100 instructors

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in 28 countries. And, an app called

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Melt on Demand where we share the self care methodology, and we infuse

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it into fitness. And so we have a lot of health clubs that,

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have it around the world. But, also, I think that

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more health clubs need to engage in the restorative

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mentality that there is a missing piece to diet and

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exercise. Because, look, if diet and exercise were all that was

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needed, everybody in fitness would be pain free. But, again, it's a dirty

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little secret is that lots of people eat right and exercise and still

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have persistent pain issues. So this is really a missing piece that needs to

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be incorporated into fitness. The one of the trends now that I would say would

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would be trying to capture what you're discussing is workout

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recovery. But you referenced before that maybe workout recovery is not the

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right terminology or not the way to think about it. So how should we think

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about it? Yeah. So I just think the word recovery, you recover from an

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injury. But what you wanna do is think proactive,

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not reactive. So if you take a proactive approach,

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then it's prepare, perform, restore, repeat. So if you prepare your

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body for performance, you restore your body, you'll

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spend a lot less time and money trying to recover from an injury later on.

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And that's what MELT is founded on. Got it. So as an entrepreneur,

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you're sitting on a a a program that works Mhmm.

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That's been tested world wide. You know, when you take a look at we do

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some work like SilverSneakers and like Medicare Advantage Plans. We've got health

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clubs that have some group programming, but maybe you're shying away from

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more depth of that because of cost or not knowing who the demo

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is. And then you've also got, you you know, physical therapy, and

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you've got groups that are, you know, doing competitions inside of corporate

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wellness. So how do you how do you push this and not

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maybe knock your head against the wall saying, like, you guys don't get it yet?

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How is that from an entrepreneurial Yeah. Kind of lensing? How how do you get

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through it? I'm first, I'm very ahead of the or a lens? How how do

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you get through it? I'm first I'm very ahead of the curve. Right? I started

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this in the late nineties. It's now 2024. People are still like, what's the

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melt method? I'm like, I I've been maybe I'm hiding under a rock. But

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Right. You know, person again, physical therapy,

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we use physical therapy after we have a problem. So

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this is really proactive, not reactive. People are reactive to

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pain. So if we can educate people that

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if you have this as a supplement, we have physical therapists

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to use MELT so that people go home and do things on their

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own so that when they come back, they're better so that you're not just

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working on the same problem all of the time. So we really

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MELT is very known in the physical therapy world,

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massage therapy, acupuncture. But in fitness, which is where I started

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it, it's still something that people don't get

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because we go to the gym apparently just to sweat

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and work it out. But if you have emotional issues, if you're

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unstable, then this is a missing piece is just quieting

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the body down. It it's incorporated into anything. And, again, you can use

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it in 1 on 1. You can use it in groups. Personal

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trainers use it, and then people can go home and perform it on their own

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with our tools that it is an at home self treatment technique that people can

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do. It's simple. It's easy. It takes about 10 minutes a day. So there's a

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lot of money right now since the beginning of the year being thrown in from

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HSA and FSA accounts. Mhmm. And there's for the people that aren't

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watching that are watching while I'm talking. Thank you. We accept

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it. They they We use that. That money now could be used towards

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fitness. Mhmm. So you get a letter of medical necessity. Maybe talk about

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how impactful that is or how you think that might open up. Yeah. I mean,

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we we we, enrolled in that as well. I mean, a lot of people

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use those funds, to purchase the products. And the great thing about

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the MELT tools is that you buy it once. It's not something that you have

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to keep buying into. You start to learn the the

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method, and it's simple to to use. So it's not

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very costly. You go to a personal trainer, chiropractor, and

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everything. That's expensive to always have to come back to that person.

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But, again, for me, I was a manual therapist and getting people out of

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my office and back into active living was the philosophy that I had. I didn't

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want them to be in my office all the time. I don't wanna be somebody's

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mom and be like, oh, let me take care of you all the time. So

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giving them tools and techniques that that are easy

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to adopt as a lifestyle change is the thing

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that we need to do in all of health care is to empower

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people to be their own best health care provider.

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Self care is the best health care. So learning to engage in self care is

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critical. Now post COVID, a lot of the online and

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digital platforms, you know, saw a pretty traumatic decrease

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in in in usage. From your standpoint, since you're basically about stability and fascia and

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and more of, like, chronic management pain continuously. Right? Talk about how that's worked

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and talk about are you still personally teaching

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some of the live classes?

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I do still teach. That's very nice. I love it. Found your You never

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did. Camera we like. Yes. So I I started Melt on

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Demand, which was a streaming platform before streaming platforms were a thing. So

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this is 2016 going on 2017. So I was already pretty

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well established in the online culture, and

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I already had online trainings where we where we were using

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the online world to prepare people for trainings. So when COVID

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happened and everybody sat around waiting for

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it to end, I locked myself in my studio and thought I'm just gonna

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move everything online and get people to keep moving

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while this pandemic is happening. They've gotta keep going. And I

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put 5 levels of instructor training online. I shot about

250
00:23:30,575 --> 00:23:33,795
300 videos over the course of a year, and

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our platform grew from about 3,000 followers to

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10,000 followers, and we've retained almost all of them. So

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we've had a really great run with,

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building a ecosystem and a lifestyle

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community where people are working together to thrive in their bodies, and

256
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we're very active. We talk to them. We have community members, and that's the one

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thing I would pass along to anybody who runs any business.

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But if you really go at it where you really wanna transform

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lives, I think that's authentic. And I came from an authentic place,

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and I just love teaching people. And it just never gets

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old to transform somebody's life who thinks that they're never gonna get well

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and suddenly they're well again. Yep. That's great. And in closing, if

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there was one area of the community that

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you say a year from now, I definitely need to be here. This is where

265
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the biggest impact is. And I think about my parents, 55 and

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over community in Wellington, Florida. And there's no one like you, and there's no

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one talking about the MELT method, and they need to be. But what's an area?

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Is it that? Is it nursing homes? Is it No. That's just it is

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the the 50 50 and over is my wheelhouse. Yep.

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There's more women who have pain than men. Chronic pain happens to women more than

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men, and that has everything to do with your hormone dysregulation. And what

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people need to know is that fascia, the stuff that

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MELT is working on, has a significant relationship to

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your immune function, your hormone balance, your gut regulation,

275
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and your basic metabolic state. So if I had to

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say who I would like to see MELT more are the

277
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,375
20 30 year olds because what I'm seeing in my studio

278
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are people in their twenties with hormonal dysregulation

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that shouldn't happen until your perimenopause or menopause, and

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that's not right. So something's happening in our culture because we're too

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sedentary. We're eating a lousy diet. We aren't

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interacting with people. I think there's a lot of emotional issues that are going on

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for people because community is what's cracking in our industry and

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and especially in the fitness world. So I think we need to

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come together and figure out how to get 20 30 year

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olds to engage in self care and let them know that they're the

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ones that are gonna transform the rest of the world. We just need to support

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00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:03,059
them more. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on today. It's been great to have you.

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Thank you. And,

290
00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:10,340
check her check her out. So so I wanna say it

291
00:26:10,340 --> 00:26:14,135
again. Anatomical gangster. It is badass.

292
00:26:14,195 --> 00:26:18,034
And you can find it on YouTube, anatomical gangster. If you guys would follow it,

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00:26:18,034 --> 00:26:21,875
I'd love for everybody to follow this. I just launched it, and I just talked

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to really brilliant people who can break complicated stuff

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00:26:25,635 --> 00:26:28,710
down into simple terms so that people can live a better life. So I hope

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00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:32,250
you guys follow it. You're kidding me. Thank you.

297
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Awesome. Cut to

298
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:36,810
commercial.

299
00:26:49,475 --> 00:26:52,914
Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

300
00:26:52,914 --> 00:26:56,730
treadmill into a novel simulator, Blending hardware, software,

301
00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:00,490
and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are immersive

302
00:27:00,490 --> 00:27:04,090
and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures, which

303
00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:07,870
empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to seniors,

304
00:27:08,090 --> 00:27:11,605
beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes, proprietary

305
00:27:11,745 --> 00:27:15,585
games and virtual race courses offer a wide content library suitable for

306
00:27:15,585 --> 00:27:16,085
all.

307
00:27:53,765 --> 00:27:57,190
Now if you do what most people do when you have these symptoms, you pop

308
00:27:57,190 --> 00:28:01,030
a pill to mask your symptoms, you're setting yourself up for more problems

309
00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:04,790
down the road. If you think of your brain's pain response as the smoke

310
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:08,505
detector going off when your toaster's on fire, taking a pain reliever

311
00:28:08,905 --> 00:28:12,345
is kinda like walking over to the smoke detector and pulling the batteries out to

312
00:28:12,345 --> 00:28:15,485
stop the alarm, but the toaster's still on fire.

313
00:28:21,299 --> 00:28:25,000
If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

314
00:28:25,059 --> 00:28:28,820
postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

315
00:28:28,820 --> 00:28:32,340
natural flow causing excessive tension compression and

316
00:28:32,340 --> 00:28:36,085
friction on the system which on a global level alters joint

317
00:28:36,085 --> 00:28:39,845
stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

318
00:28:39,845 --> 00:28:43,625
symptoms like prolonged muscle soreness, poor balance and flexibility,

319
00:28:44,085 --> 00:28:47,925
and low grade inflammation which causes your joints to ache all the

320
00:28:47,925 --> 00:28:48,425
time.

321
00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:49,919
Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

322
00:29:49,919 --> 00:29:53,760
treadmill into a novel simulator. Blending hardware, software,

323
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,520
and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are immersive

324
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,145
and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures, which

325
00:30:01,145 --> 00:30:04,505
empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to

326
00:30:04,505 --> 00:30:07,804
seniors, beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes,

327
00:30:08,105 --> 00:30:11,544
proprietary games, and virtual race courses offer a wide content

328
00:30:11,544 --> 00:30:13,164
library suitable for all.

329
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:50,139
Now if you do what most people do when you have these symptoms, you pop

330
00:30:50,139 --> 00:30:53,580
a pill to mask your symptoms, you're setting yourself up for more

331
00:30:53,580 --> 00:30:57,405
problems down the road. If you think of your brain's pain response as the

332
00:30:57,485 --> 00:31:01,245
smoke detector going off when your toaster's on fire, taking a pain

333
00:31:01,245 --> 00:31:05,005
reliever is kinda like walking over to the smoke detector and pulling the batteries

334
00:31:05,005 --> 00:31:08,465
out to stop the alarm, but the toaster's still on fire.

335
00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:18,600
If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

336
00:31:18,740 --> 00:31:22,580
postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

337
00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:26,100
natural flow causing excessive tension, compression, and

338
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,865
friction on the system which on a global level alters joint

339
00:31:29,865 --> 00:31:33,544
stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

340
00:31:33,544 --> 00:31:37,325
symptoms like prolonged muscle soreness, poor balance and flexibility,

341
00:31:37,865 --> 00:31:41,625
and low grade inflammation which causes your joints to ache all the

342
00:31:41,625 --> 00:31:42,125
time.

343
00:31:47,809 --> 00:31:51,250
Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

344
00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:54,945
treadmill into a novel simulator, blending hardware, software,

345
00:31:54,945 --> 00:31:58,385
and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are

346
00:31:58,385 --> 00:32:01,845
immersive and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures,

347
00:32:02,145 --> 00:32:05,745
which empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to

348
00:32:05,745 --> 00:32:09,200
seniors, beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes,

349
00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:13,260
proprietary games, and virtual race courses offer a wide content library

350
00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:14,400
suitable for all.

351
00:32:19,195 --> 00:32:22,635
This is Pete Moore. Welcome back to Halo Talks. We are at Sids

352
00:32:22,635 --> 00:32:26,175
Gym experiential. I am staring at one of these awesome

353
00:32:26,395 --> 00:32:29,995
virtual reality treadmills as well as staring at my good friend, Roger

354
00:32:29,995 --> 00:32:33,519
Harvey. Thanks for coming in today. Alright. Well, in the second half of the show,

355
00:32:33,519 --> 00:32:37,360
I have the pleasure of having a friend that I've known since 2000. One

356
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,799
of your original members, I think, of your 13th Street, Jim. Sure. You had my

357
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:44,480
credit card then. Hopefully, you don't have it now. Welcome to the

358
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,019
show, Doug LaVine.

359
00:32:51,315 --> 00:32:54,755
So, Doug, everyone loves the Crunch brand. I don't think there's anyone that says, hey.

360
00:32:54,755 --> 00:32:58,434
I can make that better. So tell us how when you started, how did you

361
00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:01,740
come up with that brand, and were there any cease and desist letters

362
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,900
that followed the Crunch brand? There were no cease and

363
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:09,679
desist letters. The idea behind Crunch was

364
00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:13,760
that gyms were sort of rote,

365
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:17,425
and they were only about, hey, look

366
00:33:17,425 --> 00:33:21,185
better. You wanna look better? Come here. We sort

367
00:33:21,185 --> 00:33:24,865
of had this philosophy, we're gonna make you feel better. We're gonna

368
00:33:24,865 --> 00:33:28,620
make you part of a community. And we sought out to do

369
00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:32,300
that and that's exactly, what we did. Crunch

370
00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:35,740
is a sit up, and a a Domino

371
00:33:35,740 --> 00:33:39,260
Crunch. We came up with a name. We did get a

372
00:33:39,260 --> 00:33:43,024
trademark issue, at one time with

373
00:33:43,085 --> 00:33:46,865
Nestle's Crunch out of France. Okay. Okay. But that kinda went away.

374
00:33:46,924 --> 00:33:50,764
Gotcha. You know, as you thought about the

375
00:33:50,764 --> 00:33:54,240
the Crunch brand standing for, you know, no judgments and

376
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:58,320
and trying to pull in other parts of the population. You you really start with

377
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,679
a membership model. So it was kind of a new concept that

378
00:34:01,679 --> 00:34:05,520
you're laying out in addition to a new brand. So how was

379
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,224
that from from the beginning? And We originally started as a as

380
00:34:09,224 --> 00:34:12,744
an aerobic studio, akin to Jeff Martin and Molly

381
00:34:12,744 --> 00:34:16,045
Fox, and evolved ultimately

382
00:34:16,984 --> 00:34:20,620
to a membership model as we move locations into

383
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:24,000
bigger facilities. And initially, you could

384
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,840
largely take it as a 5, 10, 20 class

385
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:31,659
punch thing. Then it sort of became a paid in

386
00:34:31,659 --> 00:34:35,475
full model. And sort of 2 or 3 years into it, we

387
00:34:35,475 --> 00:34:38,915
look to raise money, and everybody was

388
00:34:38,915 --> 00:34:42,595
interested. They said it's not bankable. It needs to

389
00:34:42,595 --> 00:34:46,355
be recurring revenue. And so the game plan

390
00:34:46,355 --> 00:34:50,035
was over a 2 to 3 year period to sell less

391
00:34:50,035 --> 00:34:53,790
paid in full memberships and to convert it

392
00:34:53,790 --> 00:34:57,550
to a monthly membership, which is akin to what most people are

393
00:34:57,550 --> 00:35:01,390
doing today. So when you started the company, I think it was a

394
00:35:01,390 --> 00:35:05,234
much higher risk venture than people maybe, you know, could appreciate looking

395
00:35:05,234 --> 00:35:08,835
back. Sure. You know, whether it's signing leases, whether it's, you know, putting all the

396
00:35:08,835 --> 00:35:12,675
legal. When did you start to hire people around you? When did you bring

397
00:35:12,675 --> 00:35:15,635
Roger in? When did you bring some of the other, you know, guys over there

398
00:35:15,635 --> 00:35:19,250
for 30 years? Roger was my, best tire, one of

399
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:23,010
my earliest tires, and really helped shape Crunch

400
00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:25,990
from almost inception into,

401
00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:30,310
company it is today and helped us grow from

402
00:35:30,530 --> 00:35:32,710
nothing to a major force,

403
00:35:34,715 --> 00:35:38,335
and was instrumental in sort of institutionalizing

404
00:35:39,035 --> 00:35:42,735
it, but not as a traditional business. Institutionalizing

405
00:35:43,195 --> 00:35:46,495
it in a unique mold breaking

406
00:35:46,795 --> 00:35:50,590
way that that was crunch. My perception

407
00:35:50,590 --> 00:35:54,350
of you has always been you might look at some data, but you're gonna

408
00:35:54,350 --> 00:35:57,730
trust your gut and you're gonna trust your creativity and intuition.

409
00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:02,085
Back in the day, there weren't many KPIs, you know. Hey. Let's look at the

410
00:36:02,085 --> 00:36:05,685
key key performance indicators. What what did you look at, and what still

411
00:36:05,685 --> 00:36:09,445
kinda guide your view of what you know is is working? Maybe not

412
00:36:09,445 --> 00:36:13,065
just looking at some metrics. Well, we were always

413
00:36:13,525 --> 00:36:16,050
on on the marketing side, we were

414
00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:20,850
very creative. I'll never forget, we had

415
00:36:20,850 --> 00:36:24,470
this gym, in the West Village. It was tiny.

416
00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:28,930
And we got I got a call one day from Time Warner. They

417
00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:32,545
were only selling, at the time,

418
00:36:33,164 --> 00:36:37,005
MTV, VH 1, USA, all of

419
00:36:37,005 --> 00:36:40,224
the cable networks were only selling national ads.

420
00:36:40,845 --> 00:36:44,625
And they, for the first time, were gonna sell New York

421
00:36:44,684 --> 00:36:48,430
City ads separately from national ads. So if

422
00:36:48,430 --> 00:36:51,650
the commercial break I'm making up was 2 minutes,

423
00:36:52,270 --> 00:36:55,950
a minute and a half would be national ads, and 30 seconds would

424
00:36:55,950 --> 00:36:58,625
be local ads. And

425
00:36:59,645 --> 00:37:03,485
nobody you know, the the Time Warner guy says, we'll produce

426
00:37:03,485 --> 00:37:06,945
an ad for you. You'll commit to

427
00:37:07,085 --> 00:37:10,560
spending $10,000. We'll produce the ad for free.

428
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,400
And I thought about it and I said, let's do it. And I went

429
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,240
back to the gym and I told everybody in the West Village, hey, we're gonna

430
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:22,020
have a TV ad. And everybody goes,

431
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,234
are you an idiot? I said, no. What what do you

432
00:37:26,234 --> 00:37:29,935
mean? They said, you you know, 2 thirds of your customers

433
00:37:30,714 --> 00:37:34,474
work in advertising. And they're bored

434
00:37:34,474 --> 00:37:38,075
out of their mind with working on Pond's cold

435
00:37:38,075 --> 00:37:41,500
cream or Johnson, baby

436
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:44,859
oil, and they would love to do this in their off

437
00:37:44,859 --> 00:37:48,700
hours for free. And I said, no

438
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:52,080
way. And so we there were people live

439
00:37:52,335 --> 00:37:56,035
early days of Crunch and subsequent all through the years

440
00:37:56,895 --> 00:38:00,575
fighting to do Crunch ads for free. Wow. And they would go

441
00:38:01,055 --> 00:38:04,494
I remember going to Ogilvy and Mather at 11 o'clock at

442
00:38:04,494 --> 00:38:08,320
night when, you know, nobody that was working there was working

443
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,080
on a paid client, and we would produce ads until 4,

444
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,520
5, 6 the next morning that you got to know, and we

445
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,280
won all kinds of Adi awards and so on and so forth. So we

446
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,755
gotta talk about the bunny the penguin, which are probably the

447
00:38:22,755 --> 00:38:26,595
best content, and I'm assuming they never ask for a raise because

448
00:38:26,595 --> 00:38:30,435
you probably put somebody back into each one of those suits. And to for people

449
00:38:30,435 --> 00:38:34,275
that don't know, those bunnies used to run around the city. They used to run

450
00:38:34,275 --> 00:38:37,950
around the subway, and they used to run around Union Square, which at the time

451
00:38:38,010 --> 00:38:41,310
used to have chains around it when it got dark. It was unsafe.

452
00:38:41,770 --> 00:38:45,530
So were there any incidences with the bunny and the penguin? And how

453
00:38:45,530 --> 00:38:48,430
did they come about? It's a great question, Pete.

454
00:38:49,690 --> 00:38:53,425
Somebody produced a movie that

455
00:38:53,425 --> 00:38:57,185
they submitted for the Long Island Film Festival. I can't

456
00:38:57,185 --> 00:39:00,785
remember his name. Showed his movie at the Long Island Film

457
00:39:00,785 --> 00:39:04,305
Festival. The movie didn't do particularly well. A friend of

458
00:39:04,305 --> 00:39:08,030
ours said, can we cut and edit this movie

459
00:39:08,030 --> 00:39:11,650
into Crunch ads by putting a voice over over it?

460
00:39:11,950 --> 00:39:15,550
He said, please, I'd love it to live on. And that's the story of

461
00:39:15,550 --> 00:39:18,910
how the bunny became the mascot for

462
00:39:18,910 --> 00:39:22,425
Crunch. And then in subsequent years, we needed him to

463
00:39:22,905 --> 00:39:26,285
interact with somebody, so we we introduced the Penguin. Gotcha.

464
00:39:28,105 --> 00:39:31,645
And and when when did it ever get cost prohibitive

465
00:39:32,185 --> 00:39:35,625
to do the TV ads? Or is that something you did until, you know, the

466
00:39:35,625 --> 00:39:39,290
sale to to Valley? That's a great question. So we

467
00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:42,590
had nobody knows this, but we had a

468
00:39:43,050 --> 00:39:46,730
a Time Warner didn't like

469
00:39:46,730 --> 00:39:49,675
running people's ads,

470
00:39:50,375 --> 00:39:53,815
local ads. Local ads, when they introduced it into New

471
00:39:53,815 --> 00:39:57,495
York, were largely Midas muffler shops, Jiffy

472
00:39:57,495 --> 00:40:01,275
Loops. They were franchises that had ads produced

473
00:40:01,335 --> 00:40:04,960
by corporate and they could afford ads. But our deal

474
00:40:05,020 --> 00:40:08,780
with Time Warner was that we would get because they love

475
00:40:08,780 --> 00:40:12,160
the creativity of Crunch's ad, we would get almost

476
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:16,079
all of their unsold inventory. Okay. So,

477
00:40:16,505 --> 00:40:20,105
basically, we would spend $10,000 a month and

478
00:40:20,105 --> 00:40:23,865
get a half a $1,000,000 worth of ads, or

479
00:40:23,865 --> 00:40:27,645
or whatever their unsold inventory was for many, many years.

480
00:40:27,705 --> 00:40:30,930
Wow. And then in 20,021,000 and

481
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:35,730
one, there was the dotcom boom, ultimately, the dotcom

482
00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:39,329
bust. Every little Internet startup company had a

483
00:40:39,329 --> 00:40:43,089
huge ad budget. And Time Warner said, hey, there's no

484
00:40:43,089 --> 00:40:46,935
excess inventory. Everybody's paying full rate, and we sort of had

485
00:40:46,935 --> 00:40:50,615
to pivot. Gotcha. One of the things you did do with the pivot, if

486
00:40:50,615 --> 00:40:54,375
I recall properly correctly is I went to Las

487
00:40:54,375 --> 00:40:58,215
Vegas one time and I saw a Las Vegas magazine that they had like the

488
00:40:58,215 --> 00:41:01,415
Mirage. And I was flipping through it and I've had like a full page Crunch

489
00:41:01,415 --> 00:41:05,070
ad. And I said I called Roger. I said, hey. Crunch is nowhere near here.

490
00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:08,910
Like, what is Doug's, like, marketing what what's going on with

491
00:41:08,910 --> 00:41:12,510
the Maestro that he thinks, like, advertising in this magazine is somehow

492
00:41:12,510 --> 00:41:15,970
gonna do something to help 19 clubs? Listen.

493
00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:19,285
The the idea we did in our heyday

494
00:41:20,385 --> 00:41:24,145
sell, men's apparel at

495
00:41:24,145 --> 00:41:27,904
Foot Locker, Nordstrom's, Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Dick's

496
00:41:27,904 --> 00:41:31,700
Sporting Goods For us, Sports Authority, the same thing with women's apparel.

497
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,220
We license bags. We license hats.

498
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,380
There was a whole series of crunch apparel

499
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,955
and related products that we sold, you know, throughout the

500
00:41:42,955 --> 00:41:46,635
world. So the the brand was bigger than 19

501
00:41:46,635 --> 00:41:50,155
health clubs, and that was a big part of the

502
00:41:50,155 --> 00:41:53,835
thinking. You know, when when you think about today and

503
00:41:53,835 --> 00:41:57,330
what you could have done if you were at the helm right now and social

504
00:41:57,330 --> 00:42:00,770
media was where it was at its inception, you

505
00:42:00,770 --> 00:42:04,370
know, what kind of crazy things do you think you would be doing right now?

506
00:42:04,370 --> 00:42:07,490
Or, you know, how quickly would it be you you be to get to market

507
00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:10,215
that that would excite you to say, hey. Let me test this. Let me test

508
00:42:11,575 --> 00:42:15,335
this. I think that that some of the stuff that we did, some

509
00:42:15,335 --> 00:42:18,635
of the avant garde classes, a lot of,

510
00:42:22,135 --> 00:42:25,275
you know, putting classes online so people could take them

511
00:42:25,830 --> 00:42:29,590
in all throughout the world would be something we do. I think that the

512
00:42:29,590 --> 00:42:33,350
brand would have, you know, big far reaching, breath,

513
00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:36,650
which it does today. And

514
00:42:37,110 --> 00:42:40,765
I think we'd have a lot of fun with, with new trends

515
00:42:40,765 --> 00:42:43,825
and and and new types of of program.

516
00:42:44,685 --> 00:42:48,465
So a lot of people here are from New York, so they were, indoctrinated

517
00:42:48,765 --> 00:42:52,380
into interesting new group exercise programs back in the day.

518
00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:55,980
Sure. Whether from the activity or from the name of it. I believe there

519
00:42:55,980 --> 00:42:59,599
was a, you know, drag queen classes, there were stripper pole classes,

520
00:43:00,859 --> 00:43:04,299
aerial yoga, you know, maybe without all the the waivers and the

521
00:43:04,299 --> 00:43:07,845
consents. Zumba obviously got started

522
00:43:07,984 --> 00:43:11,744
through Donna in, in Crunch. Sure. What are some of the

523
00:43:11,744 --> 00:43:15,184
things that you kinda latched on to and said this is on

524
00:43:15,184 --> 00:43:18,785
brand, this is off brand, this isn't racy or or trendy

525
00:43:18,785 --> 00:43:22,570
enough? How do you think about that? Obviously, we're going back,

526
00:43:22,570 --> 00:43:26,190
you know, into a different paradigm of what political correctness

527
00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:29,310
and, you know, pronouns are, but go from there.

528
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:32,830
We love to foster creativity.

529
00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:37,265
We love to be known as an innovative company.

530
00:43:37,725 --> 00:43:40,785
We were very receptive to new trends.

531
00:43:41,325 --> 00:43:44,465
And so the idea was we wanted everybody

532
00:43:45,085 --> 00:43:48,810
to to to come with us to come to us with new ideas. And

533
00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:51,870
Donna was instrumental in sort of creating

534
00:43:52,570 --> 00:43:56,410
programming out of these new creative ideas, and it was very

535
00:43:56,410 --> 00:43:59,850
effective for Crunch. It was a very effective part of our

536
00:43:59,850 --> 00:44:03,355
marketing strategy, which was, you know, back

537
00:44:03,355 --> 00:44:06,954
then, very PR driven. So

538
00:44:06,954 --> 00:44:10,555
people would find out about the brand through Elle, The New York

539
00:44:10,555 --> 00:44:14,154
Times, Vogue, so on and so forth. So this was sort of the

540
00:44:14,154 --> 00:44:17,500
lifeblood of of

541
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:21,800
of PR in those days, which was a big part of the engine for the

542
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,560
brand. You know, it definitely allowed you to have

543
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,400
something new and exciting that didn't necessarily have a capital

544
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,175
expenditure next to it. I feel like a lot of clubs today have

545
00:44:33,175 --> 00:44:37,015
their set of classes, but don't use the class as, like, the new as

546
00:44:37,015 --> 00:44:40,395
a hook. So how do you see that happening with all the different

547
00:44:40,615 --> 00:44:43,895
boutiques that are out there? You know, some of them you probably look at like

548
00:44:43,895 --> 00:44:47,240
I do and say this doesn't have a chance, you know, then there's something interesting

549
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,760
and innovative that has, you know, the right equipment, the right, you

550
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,420
know, modality at the right time with the right instructor.

551
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,040
You know, you've got HIIT workouts that have that have gone well and then kinda

552
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,755
tailed off. SoulCycle obviously did great. You know,

553
00:45:01,755 --> 00:45:05,275
now you've got solid core and some of these other modalities that are that are

554
00:45:05,275 --> 00:45:09,035
trending. Do you see where would you invest or where would you

555
00:45:09,035 --> 00:45:12,474
say here's the best opportunities that that you'd be

556
00:45:12,474 --> 00:45:15,900
excited about today if you looked at the different categories? It's

557
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:19,579
big broad trends, okay, is how I view the

558
00:45:19,579 --> 00:45:23,200
fitness industry. But within it, you know,

559
00:45:23,339 --> 00:45:27,020
people are fickle. So, you know, Sue Hitsman was

560
00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:30,765
talking about Jazzercise. Okay, and and step that

561
00:45:30,765 --> 00:45:34,205
she taught and so on and so forth. Those things don't exist

562
00:45:34,205 --> 00:45:38,045
today. You couldn't get a spin bike for many,

563
00:45:38,045 --> 00:45:41,665
many years. Now the people move on. So

564
00:45:41,724 --> 00:45:45,349
the industry is such that people are always looking

565
00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:49,329
for new and different things. You just can't be different for the

566
00:45:49,329 --> 00:45:53,170
sake of being different. There has to be a reason that

567
00:45:53,170 --> 00:45:56,869
your programming is bringing a new fresh approach,

568
00:45:58,145 --> 00:46:01,984
you know, to the market. So when when Valley made the

569
00:46:01,984 --> 00:46:05,744
approach, and I'm sure they approached you every year sequentially for years

570
00:46:05,744 --> 00:46:09,365
to to try and buy Crunch to to basically help them jump start

571
00:46:09,665 --> 00:46:13,270
their business, can you talk about emotionally

572
00:46:13,490 --> 00:46:17,170
as an entrepreneur to say, I'm gonna give my brand regardless of the

573
00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:20,690
dollar amount? Like, this is kind of an asset, but it's also your

574
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:24,474
baby. Yeah. It's it's you're

575
00:46:24,474 --> 00:46:28,155
very conflicted because this was started, you know, at my kitchen

576
00:46:28,155 --> 00:46:31,755
table, the the whole genesis of the brand,

577
00:46:31,755 --> 00:46:35,595
everything about it. And it was it is it

578
00:46:35,595 --> 00:46:39,119
was very emotional politically say that. And then and then subsequently,

579
00:46:49,305 --> 00:46:53,065
there was a sale of Crunch Yes. That was done that that we worked

580
00:46:53,065 --> 00:46:56,665
on to Integra Square with Angelo Gordon. I know you had a little bit of

581
00:46:56,665 --> 00:47:00,265
an angle in there. Is that something you can disclose and, you know, what

582
00:47:00,265 --> 00:47:03,849
maybe kinda brought you back to say, hey. Maybe I wanna take a second

583
00:47:03,849 --> 00:47:07,690
bite here. You know, I was friendly with the Angelo Gordon guys. We

584
00:47:07,690 --> 00:47:11,470
looked at doing a joint venture with,

585
00:47:12,250 --> 00:47:15,470
in China. So we went to China together.

586
00:47:15,935 --> 00:47:19,375
The, to do crunch in China. The issue there, what

587
00:47:19,535 --> 00:47:22,595
when we looked, which was probably, I don't know,

588
00:47:23,135 --> 00:47:26,835
15 years ago, really

589
00:47:26,975 --> 00:47:30,335
only expats were working out at in in

590
00:47:30,335 --> 00:47:34,040
China. And so the model, they were

591
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,720
building these giant, 25, 30 story

592
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,560
apartment buildings with beautiful gyms in them, and they wanted

593
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,135
us to sort of take them over. But the only you

594
00:47:45,295 --> 00:47:48,655
really couldn't get customers beyond the little

595
00:47:48,655 --> 00:47:52,495
expat enclave, that lived in those buildings. So it

596
00:47:52,495 --> 00:47:55,475
wasn't really a sustainable business, so we passed.

597
00:47:56,815 --> 00:47:59,875
And, you know, I've looked at,

598
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,940
I've looked at different fitness concepts,

599
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,800
subsequently and just not really, gotten back

600
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,340
in that. Yeah. If you take a look at

601
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,345
what concepts you think have have the staying power or

602
00:48:19,365 --> 00:48:22,885
brands that you say, hey, I could get behind these brands because

603
00:48:22,885 --> 00:48:26,645
they're they're an authority. They're saying something to me. What what brands and

604
00:48:26,645 --> 00:48:30,210
maybe just outside of fitness, but what brands kinda engender

605
00:48:30,210 --> 00:48:33,750
your kind of loyalty? You know, we

606
00:48:34,210 --> 00:48:37,890
fulfill the need. We basically said you

607
00:48:37,890 --> 00:48:41,330
don't have to look like Barbie and Ken. You can be

608
00:48:41,330 --> 00:48:45,045
comfortable coming to Crunch. You can be yourself coming to

609
00:48:45,045 --> 00:48:48,565
Crunch. We we will take you if you're old, you're

610
00:48:48,565 --> 00:48:52,405
young, you're fit, you're not fit. You can become part of this

611
00:48:52,405 --> 00:48:55,385
community. The world was

612
00:48:57,045 --> 00:49:00,880
beginning this exercise adventure when we started,

613
00:49:01,180 --> 00:49:04,940
and we took a different approach. Our approach was, you don't have to

614
00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:08,460
be perfect. We're not gonna judge you, and we are gonna

615
00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:12,093
create this diverse environment that everybody's gonna feel welcome. And that was the ethos of

616
00:49:12,093 --> 00:49:15,725
our brand. Okay? Today, you would say, what's

617
00:49:16,265 --> 00:49:20,105
happening in the world? Okay. Where can you

618
00:49:20,105 --> 00:49:21,645
apply that?

619
00:49:24,350 --> 00:49:27,870
World the population is aging. Okay. How are people

620
00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:31,230
gonna retire? Where are they gonna live? What

621
00:49:31,230 --> 00:49:35,010
lifestyle are they looking for? Who's gonna differentiate themselves

622
00:49:35,470 --> 00:49:39,165
within that? You know, there's a a million

623
00:49:39,224 --> 00:49:42,984
things that need to be done better, that need

624
00:49:42,984 --> 00:49:46,585
to be thought of, in a in a way

625
00:49:46,585 --> 00:49:50,025
that makes sense for big broad pause

626
00:49:50,184 --> 00:49:53,880
people are traveling. The world wants to travel. Mhmm.

627
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,480
Okay? I, you know, spent a lot of time traveling in the in the last

628
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,799
people are traveling from all of Asia. I mean, you go to the

629
00:50:01,799 --> 00:50:05,319
Acropolis, you go to the Louvre in Paris, the number

630
00:50:05,319 --> 00:50:09,055
of of of visitors are amazing. I grew up in

631
00:50:09,055 --> 00:50:12,815
New York City. When I went to the Metropolitan Museum as a

632
00:50:12,815 --> 00:50:16,575
kid, there were 20 people in the Metropolitan Museum, this

633
00:50:16,575 --> 00:50:20,275
giant museum. Now you go, it's a rock. It's like a rock concert.

634
00:50:20,310 --> 00:50:23,830
You you've gotta get tickets. It's a whole thing. So these are

635
00:50:23,830 --> 00:50:27,450
big, broad trends. And how are people gonna,

636
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:32,550
you know, treat people that are as they as they age? And and

637
00:50:32,550 --> 00:50:36,285
what are the housing, the activities, the health care, so

638
00:50:36,365 --> 00:50:40,125
on and so forth. How is that done? Same thing is true that people

639
00:50:40,125 --> 00:50:43,885
wanna travel more. Big trend now is that

640
00:50:43,885 --> 00:50:47,565
people can't afford housing. Right? Homes

641
00:50:47,565 --> 00:50:51,329
are and apartments are ridiculously expensive. How is that

642
00:50:51,329 --> 00:50:55,170
gonna how is that gonna work out? Is it is it gonna be some

643
00:50:55,490 --> 00:50:58,609
is it gonna be living at home in a different way? Is it gonna be

644
00:50:58,609 --> 00:51:02,015
4 or 5 people in a in an apartment that's

645
00:51:02,015 --> 00:51:05,715
shared? Is it gonna be you know, how are we gonna solve

646
00:51:06,095 --> 00:51:09,475
these problems? And we did that for Crunch,

647
00:51:09,935 --> 00:51:13,535
you know, in the late eighties when the world was

648
00:51:13,535 --> 00:51:16,780
was, sort of discovering fitness

649
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,860
and was very engaged in their jobs

650
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,940
from day 1. It was not you know, with the advent of of

651
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,460
of computers, people had real

652
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,195
responsibility at work, not after year 2 or

653
00:51:32,415 --> 00:51:35,935
3, but sort of right, you know, in the beginning of 19 nineties. We

654
00:51:35,935 --> 00:51:39,235
were very, very driven. People needed an outlet

655
00:51:39,455 --> 00:51:43,055
to to to unwind and to to get rid of stress. We

656
00:51:43,055 --> 00:51:46,700
provided that outlet for a whole host of different

657
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,680
kinds of people. But when you saw when you see people today

658
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,380
wearing the Crunch shirt, what does that what does that evoke to you?

659
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,885
It brings back wonderful memories, you know, of a brand

660
00:51:58,365 --> 00:52:01,725
that was, you know, very cool, very

661
00:52:01,725 --> 00:52:05,425
exciting, that was edgy,

662
00:52:06,285 --> 00:52:09,345
that were was in a lot of different markets,

663
00:52:11,005 --> 00:52:14,500
and with an amazing staff, people like

664
00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:17,960
Donna, Roger, Sue, people

665
00:52:18,660 --> 00:52:22,200
that, that worked incredibly hard, were incredibly

666
00:52:22,260 --> 00:52:25,720
driven, amazing diverse customer grant,

667
00:52:26,465 --> 00:52:30,305
base. I mean, Anthony truly is here. We had

668
00:52:30,305 --> 00:52:33,365
a whole host of of people,

669
00:52:34,385 --> 00:52:38,225
and it was a very cool brand. But we had

670
00:52:38,225 --> 00:52:42,070
this sort of mantra that you could we

671
00:52:42,070 --> 00:52:45,450
had a drag queen named Hetaletis

672
00:52:46,310 --> 00:52:50,070
who worked at at Hetaletis. Hetaletis, who had, like,

673
00:52:50,070 --> 00:52:53,530
14 inch platform heels that worked at our front desk.

674
00:52:54,725 --> 00:52:58,185
And and I thought it was wonderful, but the

675
00:52:58,485 --> 00:53:01,925
the instructions were, you speak to our

676
00:53:01,925 --> 00:53:05,525
members in a universal language, not in

677
00:53:05,525 --> 00:53:09,260
slang. So people love that we're diverse, They love that they're

678
00:53:09,260 --> 00:53:12,880
all different kinds of people working out here and working here,

679
00:53:13,020 --> 00:53:16,240
but nobody's to feel old because they don't know contemporary

680
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:19,840
slang. And that is how we created

681
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:24,145
a very special, place to work out and

682
00:53:24,145 --> 00:53:27,984
a very special place to work. And if you look today at where people

683
00:53:27,984 --> 00:53:31,585
are that worked at Crunch in the early days in terms

684
00:53:31,585 --> 00:53:35,185
of marketing jobs or owning, fitness

685
00:53:35,185 --> 00:53:38,840
brands or wellness brands, I mean, I'm that's the thing I'm

686
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,520
most proud of. I mean, people have succeeded, and people came to

687
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,280
Crunch in the early days very, very young. And we

688
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,120
asked them to do things that nobody else was doing. And

689
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,402
so they got amazing experience,

690
00:53:54,605 --> 00:53:58,365
probably 10 years before they would of anywhere else in their work

691
00:53:58,365 --> 00:54:01,825
life. Mhmm. And I'm extremely proud of that. Yeah.

692
00:54:02,285 --> 00:54:05,970
The the list of, of executives that used to work for you that now run

693
00:54:06,450 --> 00:54:09,890
other changes, start other changes kind of like, I think the Cleveland

694
00:54:09,890 --> 00:54:13,650
Browns or like Bella Chick and Parcells and, you know, like, the a

695
00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:16,690
laundry list of of some of the best coaches Sure. You know, came out of

696
00:54:16,690 --> 00:54:20,050
there. So came out of crunch. You know, a question for you related

697
00:54:20,050 --> 00:54:23,855
to the word results. You know, a lot of people tether

698
00:54:23,855 --> 00:54:27,315
onto that to say we help people get results. Planet Fitness

699
00:54:27,695 --> 00:54:31,455
doesn't really say that because they're basically giving you

700
00:54:31,455 --> 00:54:35,215
access for you for yourself to get results. But they still

701
00:54:35,215 --> 00:54:39,040
use the no judgments in in a particular way that maybe, you know,

702
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,640
should be allowed. However, you know, as you take a look at the personal

703
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,080
training that you guys used to do, which was which was pretty, you

704
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,535
know, a pretty big portion of your of your your

705
00:54:49,535 --> 00:54:53,375
your business. A large about a about a 3rd. Yeah. And and I felt like

706
00:54:53,375 --> 00:54:56,255
there was, like, a DNA of, like, you're not just coming in here, do your

707
00:54:56,255 --> 00:54:59,295
own thing, do do all of our cool classes. We want you to actually get

708
00:54:59,295 --> 00:55:03,130
results, and that was part of the culture. You know, is that hard

709
00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:06,410
harder to do now to get people that care? Or do you find those people

710
00:55:06,410 --> 00:55:10,250
that care and then get them into whatever business that you're that

711
00:55:10,250 --> 00:55:14,090
you're running? It's a it's a it's a great question. And, you know, as

712
00:55:14,090 --> 00:55:16,990
Crunch is franchised and become sort of

713
00:55:17,505 --> 00:55:21,184
a a a 10 or $20 a

714
00:55:21,184 --> 00:55:24,785
month model, plus or minus, there's been a lot of

715
00:55:24,785 --> 00:55:28,385
pros and cons. A great pro is

716
00:55:28,385 --> 00:55:31,605
it's accessible to a huge number of people.

717
00:55:31,984 --> 00:55:34,400
Another pro, I went to a Crunch,

718
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:40,619
2, 3 months ago in Tampa at 11 in the morning, and there

719
00:55:40,619 --> 00:55:44,300
were people there from all walks of life. The gym was packed at

720
00:55:44,300 --> 00:55:48,005
11 o'clock in the and

721
00:55:48,865 --> 00:55:52,625
there was a sense of community. It was clean. It was terrific. Was

722
00:55:52,625 --> 00:55:56,464
it performance driven and high results driven? I think

723
00:55:56,464 --> 00:56:00,270
it was more self directed when the gym is at that

724
00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:04,110
price point. We were company owned. The

725
00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:07,490
the price point was a higher. It was, as you said, Pete, a

726
00:56:08,190 --> 00:56:11,964
a large portion of our people trained, and I think it was

727
00:56:11,964 --> 00:56:15,505
more results driven and more more self driven today

728
00:56:16,045 --> 00:56:19,665
and more, directed driven back in the day.

729
00:56:19,805 --> 00:56:23,645
Gotcha. So so in closing here, any, any any

730
00:56:23,645 --> 00:56:27,390
funny stories that you could share with us maybe you've, gotten past, you

731
00:56:27,390 --> 00:56:30,830
know, statutes of limitations or, you know, getting getting

732
00:56:30,830 --> 00:56:34,590
permitting in New York City or, you know, having to open up and maybe it's

733
00:56:34,590 --> 00:56:37,570
like a prohibition club back in the day? Or

734
00:56:38,555 --> 00:56:42,335
Look. We were aggressive in our build outs. We built clubs

735
00:56:42,394 --> 00:56:45,535
sometimes without finalized permits. And,

736
00:56:47,434 --> 00:56:51,180
and, and, at the end of the day, it all

737
00:56:51,180 --> 00:56:54,619
worked out. And I'm I'm I'm it was it was a wonderful

738
00:56:54,619 --> 00:56:58,460
experience. Yeah. Let's take a quick commercial break here, and we'll, we'll

739
00:56:58,460 --> 00:57:02,080
finish up with Doug and the rest of the Halo talks from Sige. Jim,

740
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:02,475
thank

741
00:57:13,195 --> 00:57:16,895
you. Welcome to experiential.

742
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:20,890
We've reimagined the age old treadmill into a novel simulator.

743
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:24,970
Blending hardware, software, and AI, we deliver movement

744
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:28,710
experiences that are immersive and fun. We've replaced

745
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:32,125
buttons with gestures, which empower and free the user to move

746
00:57:32,125 --> 00:57:35,505
naturally. From youth to seniors, beginner to advanced,

747
00:57:35,724 --> 00:57:39,164
our adventurous scenes, proprietary games, and virtual race

748
00:57:39,164 --> 00:57:42,385
courses offer a wide content library suitable for all.

749
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,440
Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

750
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,500
treadmill into a novel simulator. Blending hardware,

751
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:59,535
software and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are

752
00:57:59,535 --> 00:58:03,075
immersive and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures,

753
00:58:03,375 --> 00:58:06,974
which empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to

754
00:58:06,974 --> 00:58:10,275
seniors, beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes,

755
00:58:10,575 --> 00:58:14,095
proprietary games, and virtual race courses offer a wide content

756
00:58:14,095 --> 00:58:17,530
library suitable for

757
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:19,130
all.

758
00:58:56,155 --> 00:58:59,674
Now if you do what most people do when you have these symptoms, you pop

759
00:58:59,674 --> 00:59:03,515
a pill to mask your symptoms, you're setting yourself up for more problems

760
00:59:03,515 --> 00:59:06,954
down the road. If you think of your brain's pain response as the

761
00:59:06,954 --> 00:59:10,750
smoke going off when your toaster's on fire, taking a pain

762
00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:14,510
reliever is kinda like walking over to the smoke detector and pulling the batteries

763
00:59:14,510 --> 00:59:17,970
out to stop the alarm, but the toaster's still on fire.

764
00:59:28,405 --> 00:59:32,085
If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

765
00:59:32,085 --> 00:59:35,925
postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

766
00:59:35,925 --> 00:59:39,530
natural flow causing excessive tension compression and

767
00:59:39,530 --> 00:59:43,210
friction on the system which on a global level alters joint

768
00:59:43,210 --> 00:59:46,970
stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

769
00:59:46,970 --> 00:59:50,714
symptoms like prolonged muscle soreness, poor balance and flexibility,

770
00:59:51,255 --> 00:59:55,015
and low grade inflammation, which causes your joints to ache all the

771
00:59:55,015 --> 00:59:55,515
time.

772
01:00:54,215 --> 01:00:57,690
Welcome to experiential. We've reimagined the age old

773
01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:01,530
treadmill into a novel simulator. Blending hardware, software,

774
01:01:01,530 --> 01:01:05,290
and AI, we deliver movement experiences that are immersive

775
01:01:05,290 --> 01:01:08,890
and fun. We've replaced buttons with gestures, which

776
01:01:08,890 --> 01:01:12,724
empower and free the user to move naturally. From youth to seniors,

777
01:01:12,865 --> 01:01:16,325
beginner to advanced, our adventurous scenes, proprietary

778
01:01:16,465 --> 01:01:20,224
games, and virtual race courses offer a wide content library suitable

779
01:01:20,224 --> 01:01:20,885
for all.

780
01:02:34,895 --> 01:02:38,515
If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

781
01:02:38,575 --> 01:02:42,415
postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

782
01:02:42,415 --> 01:02:45,935
natural flow causing excessive tension, compression, and

783
01:02:45,935 --> 01:02:49,680
friction on the system, which on a global level alters joint

784
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,440
stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

785
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,220
symptoms like prolonged muscle soreness, poor balance and flexibility,

786
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,440
and low grade inflammation which causes your joints to ache all the

787
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:01,940
time.

788
01:03:09,605 --> 01:03:12,505
We are back at SIDS gym experiential

789
01:03:12,964 --> 01:03:16,760
virtual reality. I have a pleasure of still having Doug

790
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,820
LaVine next to me as we close out this podcast

791
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:24,040
live. We're

792
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,820
gonna focus on a couple more questions related to franchising

793
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:31,465
versus corporate owned stores. Sure. Obviously, a lot of

794
01:03:31,465 --> 01:03:34,985
entrepreneurs come in. They say, hey. I got this awesome box. I'd like

795
01:03:34,985 --> 01:03:38,825
500 people to pay me to run it. And then they actually run into some

796
01:03:38,825 --> 01:03:42,600
problems with actually continuing to modify the the

797
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,360
play and modify the special sauce. So talk about how you

798
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,140
didn't do franchising and why, and then we can go from there.

799
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,300
Well, franchising wasn't a big thing when we were doing crunch,

800
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,964
a. B, the federal government

801
01:03:58,345 --> 01:04:00,444
in, you know, had a program

802
01:04:02,424 --> 01:04:06,265
early on that subsidized home mortgages for people. It

803
01:04:06,265 --> 01:04:09,565
was a big thing, in the 1990s

804
01:04:11,570 --> 01:04:15,090
about owning homes. And and they created,

805
01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:18,930
ultimately, the housing bubble. But, ultimately, a lot of people

806
01:04:18,930 --> 01:04:22,770
owned homes. It was fantastic. The same federal government had

807
01:04:22,770 --> 01:04:26,595
this idea that everybody should own a business. And

808
01:04:26,595 --> 01:04:30,355
they the SBA was very aggressive and, to

809
01:04:30,355 --> 01:04:33,875
this day, is very aggressive in, in

810
01:04:33,875 --> 01:04:36,775
lending people money to own franchises.

811
01:04:37,555 --> 01:04:40,940
So that wasn't available in the 19 nineties,

812
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,240
as it is were it's wasn't as prevalent as as it is

813
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,900
today, a. B,

814
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,085
you know, franchising comes with peril. You

815
01:04:53,085 --> 01:04:56,605
have a dedicated group of

816
01:04:56,605 --> 01:05:00,305
people that ate, slept, and breathe crunch

817
01:05:00,685 --> 01:05:04,145
from every aspect of it, from

818
01:05:04,690 --> 01:05:08,450
the programming, the design, the marketing, the personal

819
01:05:08,450 --> 01:05:12,210
training, every aspect of it, to a high standard

820
01:05:12,210 --> 01:05:15,830
and a high level of creativity. And when you franchise,

821
01:05:15,890 --> 01:05:19,155
it's very difficult to deliver that,

822
01:05:20,435 --> 01:05:24,115
in a geographic area where

823
01:05:24,115 --> 01:05:27,715
you're not, from an owner that's not part of that

824
01:05:27,715 --> 01:05:31,560
culture. And so there are pros and cons.

825
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:35,480
And so I don't look at it today where Crunch is largely a

826
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,320
franchise model. Mhmm. I think it's fantastic, and I think there are many

827
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,000
pros like we talked about before the break. It's a

828
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,805
lower price point model. People love it. There are

829
01:05:46,805 --> 01:05:50,405
people there from all different walks of life. And I

830
01:05:50,405 --> 01:05:53,525
and I when I was in the 1 2 2 months ago, I was very

831
01:05:53,525 --> 01:05:57,369
proud that I created it, but it's a different experience. You You know, you

832
01:05:57,369 --> 01:06:01,050
obviously have the systems, you've got pricing, you've got SEO, so

833
01:06:01,050 --> 01:06:04,650
there's definitely a lot of benefits. The franchising, someone said to me

834
01:06:04,650 --> 01:06:08,010
once, you live and die by your first 10

835
01:06:08,010 --> 01:06:11,635
franchisees. They either get the program and they're bought in and

836
01:06:11,635 --> 01:06:15,395
they actually run the play or you're basically probably

837
01:06:15,395 --> 01:06:19,075
in lawsuits and this thing's never gonna turn into what it should

838
01:06:19,075 --> 01:06:22,915
be. Have you seen concepts without naming names that, you know, it

839
01:06:22,915 --> 01:06:25,545
looks like they've got a good business. It's something that they should get paid for

840
01:06:25,545 --> 01:06:28,170
someone to run their playbook, yet they just way outgrew their skis. Someone to run

841
01:06:28,170 --> 01:06:30,415
their playbook, yet they just way outgrew their skis on where they should be focused

842
01:06:30,415 --> 01:06:34,030
on. Absolutely. It's very, very, very difficult skill to start a brand

843
01:06:34,410 --> 01:06:35,070
from scratch.

844
01:06:41,975 --> 01:06:45,655
Most people are left brained or right brained. Right. To

845
01:06:45,655 --> 01:06:48,955
be able to come up with a concept that makes sense

846
01:06:49,335 --> 01:06:52,315
and to execute on all the different aspects

847
01:06:52,775 --> 01:06:56,560
from branding, naming it, creating

848
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,400
the concept, the pricing model, the whole brand

849
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,840
as the real estate decisions, the HR decisions, the back

850
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,515
office, the maintenance, the construction. There are very few

851
01:07:07,914 --> 01:07:11,375
individuals that can come and do the whole gamut

852
01:07:11,835 --> 01:07:14,414
on a start up basis with limited funds.

853
01:07:15,434 --> 01:07:18,974
When somebody has sort of cracked that code

854
01:07:19,434 --> 01:07:20,190
and creates

855
01:07:34,510 --> 01:07:38,245
you know, if you know, if the the people that are franchising the

856
01:07:38,245 --> 01:07:41,765
brands are of the same mindset, and

857
01:07:41,765 --> 01:07:45,525
don't and really buy into it. And if it if

858
01:07:45,525 --> 01:07:49,349
it is tightly controlled and the people

859
01:07:49,349 --> 01:07:52,869
that are running the company look at it from both points of

860
01:07:52,869 --> 01:07:56,470
view, what's in it for the franchisee, what's

861
01:07:56,470 --> 01:08:00,089
it's in it for the franchise or and everybody's on the same page.

862
01:08:00,230 --> 01:08:03,674
You know, it's interesting. You know, some companies at the franchisor

863
01:08:03,815 --> 01:08:07,654
level will parachute people in from corporate, you know, to basically live

864
01:08:07,654 --> 01:08:11,335
at the club. You know, Roger has been working with us. We did a New

865
01:08:11,335 --> 01:08:14,694
York Sports Club turnaround, and now he's been inside of a couple of Crunch

866
01:08:14,694 --> 01:08:17,710
locations helping out and basically trying to bring that DNA

867
01:08:18,090 --> 01:08:21,689
from where you guys were back in the day and kind of infuse it. So,

868
01:08:21,689 --> 01:08:25,370
like, this is how we ran the playbook. So, like, bringing people

869
01:08:25,370 --> 01:08:28,854
back and mentoring could be a really interesting way for a lot of brands to

870
01:08:28,854 --> 01:08:32,695
do it. Roger was front and center. Roger was a huge part

871
01:08:32,695 --> 01:08:36,535
of Crunch. So now that he's consulting for for Crunch

872
01:08:36,535 --> 01:08:39,975
franchise is very I mean, there couldn't be a better

873
01:08:39,975 --> 01:08:43,790
resource, period. I mean, he he was in Saturday meetings

874
01:08:44,090 --> 01:08:47,070
when the whole team was there working on Crunch,

875
01:08:47,850 --> 01:08:51,450
and he was running a large part of it. So Yeah. We've we've had

876
01:08:51,450 --> 01:08:54,984
Donna come in and do some, group exercise programming with

877
01:08:54,984 --> 01:08:57,965
us inside and outside, the clubs as well,

878
01:08:58,744 --> 01:09:01,885
and and Terry Blachik, one of your other, you know, underlings.

879
01:09:02,665 --> 01:09:06,125
Let's pivot over to one more subject that a lot of people are talking about.

880
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,840
I'm not sure if it's really there there in the industry, but everyone talks

881
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,600
about artificial intelligence. I like to say that you can't have artificial

882
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:17,440
intelligence until you have intelligence. So let's get information on the

883
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:21,165
member, and then you can actually have somebody analytically figure

884
01:09:21,305 --> 01:09:23,104
out what might be the next move or what you should be doing or what

885
01:09:23,104 --> 01:09:25,305
kind of interactions you should have. So how do you feel about when someone talks

886
01:09:25,305 --> 01:09:28,845
about AI? Is that meaningful to you? Is that like, okay.

887
01:09:28,985 --> 01:09:32,365
Great idea, but you really don't have the the machinations of it?

888
01:09:35,689 --> 01:09:38,990
You know, do I think that things that are

889
01:09:39,689 --> 01:09:43,370
that people do online, I think the data will be much quicker

890
01:09:43,370 --> 01:09:47,149
to AI where people are going to a gym

891
01:09:47,689 --> 01:09:51,435
and, you know, you can track if they're taking classes or doing

892
01:09:51,435 --> 01:09:55,115
free weights, but your data is very sort of limited at this point in

893
01:09:55,115 --> 01:09:58,815
time. It's hard for AI to create a program

894
01:09:59,115 --> 01:10:02,795
as it is today. Right. Ultimately, that will change and become

895
01:10:02,795 --> 01:10:06,500
very, very useful. But right now, I think that

896
01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:10,260
the early adapters where it's gonna be useful is in, you know,

897
01:10:10,260 --> 01:10:13,940
where you're searching, what's your passions are, that sort of

898
01:10:13,940 --> 01:10:17,700
thing. Gotcha. Well, it's been great having you on. I'm glad

899
01:10:17,700 --> 01:10:21,074
we had this opportunity. It's a lovely couch and chair. I love it, Pete. We

900
01:10:21,074 --> 01:10:23,875
gotta do we gotta do it again next year. We'll just turn it off. Let's

901
01:10:23,875 --> 01:10:26,295
hang out here. Thank you.

902
01:10:29,235 --> 01:10:32,594
What The experiential is a place for you to enjoy

903
01:10:32,594 --> 01:10:36,310
exercise. Adventures in nature, gaming, and

904
01:10:36,310 --> 01:10:39,830
virtual races are all available now. We call

905
01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:41,210
this excitainment.

906
01:11:18,365 --> 01:11:21,725
Now if you do what most people do when you have these symptoms, you pop

907
01:11:21,725 --> 01:11:25,165
a pill to mask your symptoms, you're setting yourself up for more

908
01:11:25,165 --> 01:11:28,880
problems down the road. If you think of your brain's pain response is

909
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,560
the smoke detector going off when your toaster's on fire, taking a

910
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,160
pain reliever is kinda like walking over to the smoke detector and pulling the

911
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,520
batteries out to stop the alarm, but the toaster's still on

912
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:40,020
fire.

913
01:11:47,005 --> 01:11:50,625
If you think of the fluid in fascia like a river, repetitive

914
01:11:50,685 --> 01:11:54,525
postures and movements of daily living create sediment that alters the river's

915
01:11:54,525 --> 01:11:58,100
natural flow causing excessive tension compression and

916
01:11:58,100 --> 01:12:01,780
friction on the system which on a global level alters joint

917
01:12:01,780 --> 01:12:05,540
stability and mobility. It's also the origin of many

918
01:12:05,540 --> 01:12:08,600
symptoms like poor muscle soreness, poor balance,

919
01:12:09,115 --> 01:12:12,635
flexibility, and low grade inflammation, which causes your joints to

920
01:12:12,635 --> 01:12:14,015
ache all the time.